Not to start a big argument, but I thought this post (found via slashdot) was an interesting account:
http://soulkerfuffle.blogspot.com/2006/10/view-from-top.html (http://soulkerfuffle.blogspot.com/2006/10/view-from-top.html)
My own experience has been that my deep involvement with MMOGs in the past has been something of an enabling factor that kept me from addressing other parts of my life that I wasn't happy with. I would never go so far as comparing MMOG games to drug addictions and they never account for the whole explanation of how someone's life got off track.
WoW is a new beast in this department though, because it is so much more widely played than anything that came before. I bet we're looking at another round of MMOG addiction in the news cycle.
QuoteI would never go so far as comparing MMOG games to drug addictions
/shrug, I would :p
I got straight F's my sophmore year in College (both semesters) and was thrown out. I would wake up around 8pm and play online games (MUDs in my case) until noon the next day. I played at night because the connection speeds were faster.
Spent several years at home being just as bad about it.
The fact that my now wife hates these games with a passion (and hates me playing them) is about the only thing that pulled me off of them long enough to start straightening out my life.
- Syll
I've always had something going on in my life. Music, Boy Scouts, Video Games.
If you are an addict, it really doesn't matter what the item is you are addicted to.
The only problem I see if the immediate access to the video games since everyone has a computer, but not everyone has a grow house. (unless you live in Oregon)
The following is just how I feel about this issue and my experience with it, no offence is intended to anyone who feels that MMOs are harmful things.
I had a problem with MMOs a few years ago, sometimes not sleeping for days at a time, wanting to spend every waking moment in the game, etc. I was pretty unhappy in real life at the time, and MMOs provided an escape from all that. That said, it really isn't the game's fault - it's just a game. The issue was my lack of self discipline. In a world where people are trying to pass off compulsive spending as a disease rather than a lack of self control, it doesn't surprise me that people are now pointing the finger at MMOs. My mum was a compulsive spender when I was a kid, and it was entirely her own fault. It certainly wasn't the fault of people making or advertising products, and it wasn't society's fault for creating a culture where our goal is to accumulate as many belongings as we can. She wanted to buy things, so she bought them and to hell with the consequences. I wanted to lose myself in a video game where I could be whoever I wanted, so I did it and to hell with the consequences.
The comparison to drugs really falls flat for me. Drugs are physical substances that are proven to cause real, physical addiction. I used MMOs as a mental crutch because I chose to, and it's really that simple. Nobody is responsible for that but me. It was the same lack of self-discipline that originally led me to start cleaning the house or sketching a picture or making a cup of tea or seeing my friends when I was supposed to be writing a term paper, only with MMOs I wasn't doing anything productive or social in RL when I procrastinated, so it was "bad" and "harmful". The game didn't make me any more irresponsible than I was already, it just became much more obvious because of the unproductive nature of what I was wasting my time on.
What I was trying to say was that if you are an addict, you will be addicted to something.
If you are a procrastinator, you'll procrastinate with something.
If you have no self-control, then you'll lose control with something.
Right now, it's just easy to say that The problem is the product the people are using instead of the people with the problem are using the product.
I feel people need to own their own demons more and blame everything else less.
I would argue that MMOGs with their reward structure and social design tend to be a much more consuming passion than other ways for people compared to mundane alternative activities.
I play the mandolin and enjoy it, but I'd never be able to spend thirty-plus hours a week over a period of months playing like I could with MMOGs. I think there is a difference for many people in their ability to walk away from a MMOG compared to other passtimes and hobbies
I think that's why people liken it to drug addiction.
There was a study recently that showed that people who play MMOs for the most part just watch less TV. They spend no more or less time on average in combined TV and MMO playing then the average person watches TV.
That doesn't mean that some people don't go to extremes. That doesn't mean that it doesn't adversely effect some people's lives. It just means that on balance, the MMOs and their player bases are average in their media comsumption, it is just different then average media.
Quote from: DeeCaudill on October 18, 2006, 03:13:48 PM
I would argue that MMOGs with their reward structure and social design tend to be a much more consuming passion than other ways for people compared to mundane alternative activities.
Hmm ... perhaps that makes it easier to spend more time, but I agree with Rosemary and XO ... if you're inclined to procrastinating, you'll find something to procrastinate with. Before MMO's, I used to spend hours on dial-up BBS's, and after that IRC, and there was no reward structure there. The social ties make it easier to justify and more attractive, but at the end of the day it's my choice to procrastinate, and I don't think MMO's are truly addictive in any way - no more than any other social interaction, anyway.
Weren't there plenty of Grown husbands in the 60s, before Computers, that wasted away their days golfing?
Or further back in the 30s when they played cards?
It's the newest medium for it.
The problem I would see is that PCs are in the homes, where you can get to it instantly, without setting up a tee time.
Quoteif you're inclined to procrastinating, you'll find something to procrastinate with.
I would argue that you can't break a cycle of procrastination without quitting an MMOG if it happens to be the primary enabling factor for the behavior. My personal experience bears this out. For a run of about four years I was absolutely miserable at my job. Around that time I started playing EQ and it became an easy escape from a very real problem (cruddy job). Instead of doing what needed to be done, I came home from work, logged in, and ignored the real roots of my discontent. Eventually I broke out of the cycle about three years ago and made the changes I should have taken when I started playing EQ.
I'm not saying MMOGs are somehow systematically addictive for everyone, which is why I don't like the comparison to drug or alcohol addiction. When I say that there are some similarities to addiction, it is because of the sorts of extreme behavior that I've seen in myself and others that stem from using MMOGs as an escape mechanism. The Skinner reward structure of MMOGs can give them a stronger hold on certain types of people. I happen to be one of them.
From my own personal experience, I found that one of the reasons it was difficult for me to walk away from MMOs was the people I played with rather than any reward structure. Obviously this was in great part due to some wonderful and lasting friendships, but there was kind of an uglier side to it too. For one thing, it's not like a single player game where you can just drop everything and leave when you feel like it - if you join a group/raid/whatever, you have a responsibility to those people.
Then there's the fact that the world of an MMO, guilds and their boards are all pretty microcosmic in nature. For me (and others, I would venture to guess) there was a real feeling for some time of things being much more important than they truly were - I described it to a friend a couple of years ago as being like the Big Brother house, where you would see housemates screaming blue murder at one another over something as simple as a piece of burnt toast. That environment can really make you sweat the small stuff. And like Big Brother, that kind of thing can be weirdly compelling if you're a part of it, not to mention a nice distraction if you have bigger problems in your real life. Look at the Soapbox on the FV boards for a perfect example of a place where drama, attention whoring, mob mentality and mental illness were not only facts of life, but often applauded and encouraged. I probably spent as much time on the boards as I did in the game, and so did many others. Can EQ be held responsible for any of that?
I found this website fantastically interesting. Maybe it will add to the conversation?
http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/gateway_intro.html
This is his introduction:
I surveyed MMORPG players for the first time in the Fall of 99. Since then, I've surveyed over 35,000 MMORPG players from most of the popular US MMORPGs. Over the past 5 years, I've presented these findings in a variety of formats. I settled on The Daedalus Project as a way to easily present findings, but the problem that emerged was that it became hard to illustrate themes and show the big picture using a blog format.
The Daedalus Gateway is an attempt to provide a coherent gateway to all those findings. Also, they are meant as a set of thematic primers for people who stumble onto the site but have no idea where to start or how to make sense of all the information. In the short introductions, I sometimes make reference to other research in order to draw out the larger themes. To avoid confusion, all links in the text are internal links to more in-depth data or presentations. External links are clearly marked as such at the bottom of each page.
I hope these pages are useful as a means to navigate through the underlying data that has been presented over the past few years. These pages will also be updated as new findings and resources become available.
I look at it as MMO's in the end provide entertainment. Some people entertain themselves by playing a guitar, some watch TV, some listen to music, some people collect stamps, some do gardening, others hang out at the mall and don't buy anything. In the end, none of these past-times accomplish really anything except for the pleasure we take from doing them.
A person who abuses MMO's to the point of it destroying their life would almost certainly do the same thing with another form of entertainment. It's not that they are 'hooked' on MMOs, it's that they're trying to hide from the other parts of their lives. That's what you need to address if 'addiction' is an issue, not the nature of MMOs.
I will agree that MMO's are socially inconvenient for people on your side of the screen. It's difficult to stop sometimes, but if you set limits for yourself there really shouldn't be a problem unless you want there to be a problem.
QuoteA person who abuses MMO's to the point of it destroying their life would almost certainly do the same thing with another form of entertainment.
People who make these statements haven't experienced what it is about MMOG's that's dangerous.
I have spent several days loafing around the house, watching TV or otherwise getting nothing done. At the end of the day, I felt like I'd gotten nothing done. Relaxed, but like I'd had a lazy day. Motivated to do more with the next day, etc.
I have also spent 24 strraight hours sitting on my ass playing a MMOG. When I stood up at the end of the day, I felt like I'd accomplished something. The in-game reward system tricks your mind into thinking you've been busy and productive.
I'm not saying MMOG's
make people do anything. People have free will. I'm just saying they're sirens. They're deceitful and they entice and the unprepared can lose significant chunks of their time to them.
- Syll
Well, I never do anything I would consider remotely productive even when I'm in game. I'm a meta-meta-slacker. :P
XP, loot, and levels are all happy accidents. I love to wave at them as they go by. :brfm
QuoteFrom my own personal experience, I found that one of the reasons it was difficult for me to walk away from MMOs was the people I played with rather than any reward structure.
I would argue that the social experience you are describing is partly engineered by game design. At the extreme end of things, like a serious raiding guild, almost the entire set of social rules within a guild is a consequence of game design.
QuoteA person who abuses MMO's to the point of it destroying their life would almost certainly do the same thing with another form of entertainment. It's not that they are 'hooked' on MMOs, it's that they're trying to hide from the other parts of their lives. That's what you need to address if 'addiction' is an issue, not the nature of MMOs.
That's a pretty and unfair generalization towards those of us who have had balance issues with MMOGs in the past. I still have lots of other passions today, but none of them have produced an equivalent negative impact on my life that the years I squandered on MMOGs did.
Quote from: DeeCaudill on October 18, 2006, 07:15:29 PM
I still have lots of other passions today, but none of them have produced an equivalent negative impact on my life that the years I squandered on MMOGs did.
Just reading what you've written, I don't quite understand why you seem to be saying MMOG's had such a negative impact on your life, or why the years were squandered.
QuoteAround that time I started playing EQ and it became an easy escape from a very real problem (cruddy job). Instead of doing what needed to be done, I came home from work, logged in, and ignored the real roots of my discontent.
If you'd had a job you loved and adored, and came home to play EQ at night, would you still say the years had been squandered and the impact on your life has been negative?
If you hadn't played EQ but taken up gambling, or a religious cult, or something else, wouldn't it have been just as easy to ignore the cruddy job?
To play devil's advocate, wouldn't it be just as easy to look at it in reverse and say you were miserable and the years were negative because you had a cruddy job and were ignoring the fact you really needed to get out of it, but that EQ was at least an enjoyable pastime that brightened up your evenings during that period? The job was the reason you consider those years negative, and squandered. Perhaps your current passions aren't as consuming as your time in EQ, but that is that just because you don't have the same need to escape your current life as you did back then? There's no way to know, really. If EQ hadn't been around back then, perhaps you'd have addressed the job issue earlier - or perhaps you'd just have found another way to escape. Goodness knows I was in a job I disliked for several years, but I don't think EQ has anything to do with my remaining there for so long. EQ just gave me something fun to do in the evenings.
I understand that you and others are saying MMOGs make it EASIER to use them as an escape, and trick your mind into thinking you're being productive when you're not. But I don't see that EQ is any worse than any other easy escape from a bad situation that a person wants to ignore. Many (most) types of escape make it easy for people to keep coming back. And for that matter EQ is probably better than a lot of other escapes; you didn't come out of it with a drug addiction, a gambling debt, or a wierd cult brainwashing. You did come out with friends and acquaintances across the world, a lot of great creative writing you wouldn't otherwise have produced, and the knowledge that you made a lot of people's lives more interesting and enjoyable.
I guess I'm just baffled by the extreme negativity towards MMO's from you and Syll, when it really doesn't seem to me from the examples given that MMO's were the real root of the problem.
I've had balance issues with EverQuest where I would literally stay up all weekend and play, and when I dreamt, I dreamt of EQ. I went a certain way that I found that I could either have friends in real life or friends on line, and I chose friends on line.
That said, my involvement in the greater community led to me writing creatively and doing artwork after about 12 years of burying all of what made life special for me under a pile of what I thought my life was supposed to be. I also met two people who I count as part of my handful of dearest friends.
It is a dangerous, addictive place where escapist dysfunctions find the perfect fit. It is also a wellspring of creativity and community. I think that it is a microcosm of life complete with all of life's dangers. I also think that my life and the quality of my life have ultimately changed for the better.
I'm not trying to be cute, but I whole-heartedly agree with everyone's statements. I think that MMOs are a dichotomy of addictive, crappy, soul-sucking waste and of vibrant community of incredibly bright and creative people.
QuoteI guess I'm just baffled by the extreme negativity towards MMO's from you and Syll, when it really doesn't seem to me from the examples given that MMO's were the real root of the problem.
What you perceive as extreme negativity I perceive as honesty. It's apt that you should mention gambling and religious cults because both of those have addictive factors as well.
"Gambling addiction" isn't just an excuse for blowing a lot of money at the Casino. It's a real problem.
And yes, for any given addiction, the root causes that drive it are most likely unrelated to the activity itself. But that doesn't mean that the addictive properties aren't real, and it doesn't mean that you'd just find something else.
QuoteTo play devil's advocate, wouldn't it be just as easy to look at it in reverse and say you were miserable and the years were negative because you had a cruddy job and were ignoring the fact you really needed to get out of it, but that EQ was at least an enjoyable pastime that brightened up your evenings during that period?
No, it's not as easy to look at it that way. Because it's a time in life where you
needed to feel crappy. You needed to feel so goddamn crappy and miserable that you'd be motivated to do something about it.
Negative emotions are there for a reason. Their inherent unpleasantness is a motivator. The fact that you don't want to keep feeling a certain way is a very nice kick in the pants every day to consider changing it. Drugs numb those emotions (even non-addictive ones like pot where you can just settle down into a cool mellow and not worry about it anymore). MMOG's don't so much numb them as replace them. They substitute false senses of accomplishment and productivity.
QuoteThe job was the reason you consider those years negative, and squandered.
In part. But what you're missing is that MMOG's were an adequate crutch at keeping him in that crappy job.
QuoteAnd for that matter EQ is probably better than a lot of other escapes; you didn't come out of it with a drug addiction, a gambling debt, or a wierd cult brainwashing.
No, I just came out of it a 25 year-old adult with no money and only 1 year of college behind him.
QuoteYou did come out with friends and acquaintances across the world,
Yes, I've made friends through EQ. But honest to god... it's not
that hard to make friends. You can go to a D&D convention over a weekend and walk out with several new friends. Saying "MMOG's aren't dangerous because you can make friends in them" doesn't logically flow. You can make friends in any social activity.
Quotea lot of great creative writing you wouldn't otherwise have produced,
Perhaps. Or possibly you would've produced more. Or possibly you would've explored a different creative outlet.
Quoteand the knowledge that you made a lot of people's lives more interesting and enjoyable.
Again, this isn't hard to do.
I know you're baffled by this, but like I said, I'm just being honest. It's a side of online gaming you haven't personally experienced and so it's hard for you to understand what it's like for someone who has.
I've gambled before. I like to play the slots. Vegas makes a great weekend holiday. I've never been addicted to gambling. I don't pretend to know what it's like to be addicted to gambling. If someone tried to explain to me what gambling addiction was like, I wouldn't try to explain to them how it's actually a great activity and look at all the positives that came along with the negatives of their gambling addiction.
- Syll
QuoteIt is a dangerous, addictive place where escapist dysfunctions find the perfect fit. It is also a wellspring of creativity and community.
Yes.
I can't believe how accurately Syll just summed up my response.
This is not a discussion that generalizes everyone's situation. My experience doesn't necessarily mesh with that of people who can play an MMOG regularly and keep everything else in balance. It doesn't mean that all MMOG are evil, but they have the potential to cause a heavy negative impact in some situations that makes them very comperable to other addictive situations.
I don't mean to be all doom and gloom, but my experience bears this out. I can't say what's best for anyone else, but I know what doesn't work for me. :coolsmiley:
Quote from: Syllestrae on October 19, 2006, 04:49:20 AM
I've gambled before. I like to play the slots. Vegas makes a great weekend holiday. I've never been addicted to gambling. I don't pretend to know what it's like to be addicted to gambling. If someone tried to explain to me what gambling addiction was like, I wouldn't try to explain to them how it's actually a great activity and look at all the positives that came along with the negatives of their gambling addiction.
- Syll
Well, you could do that Syll, but it would be considered rude. It would be flaunting a person's problem in front of them and taunting them with it. For an addict, any good their particular past-time afforded them is heavily outweighed by the damage the addiction has done to them. But for someone without an addiction, there are healthy and positive aspects to gambling, or TV watching or whathaveyou.
I still think that if you're the type of person that's going to get hooked, you'll get hooked on whatever comes your way and appeals to your taste. Yes, there
is a darkside to MMO's but they *aren't* designed to steal your life and hold you no matter what, unlike drugs and alcohol. MMO's are designed to to a fun and pleasant activity that also makes a steady flow of profit for their company. I think that if you asked people at an MMO company if they wanted people to ruin their own lives over their game, they'd say that they'd rather not take the addicts money and let them hurt themselves.
It's like a monkeywrench. It doesn't do anything on it's own. The people that made it designed it to turn things and hold pipe. But you can also use it to bash yourself in the head if you like. I'm sure the people who designed and built the wrench would rather you didn't, but they can't stop you.
The problem is, I'm not connecting how you would find the designers of the game at fault for the self abuse of the users. Is there any reasonable way they could not sell their services to people who want to abuse themselves with their product? I don't think warning labels would help... should they monitor people's usage and shutdown automatically after say, 6 hours of use per day? Is there a way to stop people from using MMO or other entertainment oriented pursuits badly?
I don't recall implicating the designers in some sort of conspiracy and I don't see where Syll did either, Namae.
Quote from: DeeCaudill on October 19, 2006, 07:02:41 AM
I don't recall implicating the designers in some sort of conspiracy and I don't see where Syll did either, Namae.
That is true, but you said they were dangerous. Who made them dangerous?
If it's not the designers fault then whose fault is it that that's so?
QuoteWell, you could do that Syll, but it would be considered rude.
That was sort of my point, because that's what you and some others in this thread are doing.
Dee and I are trying to explain the mechanisms through which MMOG's swallowed whole chunks of our lives. We're trying to help you understand, as FYI, why they can be so addictive and how they can destroy parts of someone's life.
And the feedback we're getting ranges from "Maybe staying in your craphole of a job for years on end or flunking out of college and living with your parents fand working retail was good for you!" to "All addictions are the same and if you hadn't gotten hooked on MMOG's you would've gotten hooked on something else."
I'm not going to address the rest of your response because you're counter-arguing against points I never made.
- Syll
QuoteThat is true, but you said they were dangerous. Who made them dangerous?
If it's not the designers fault then whose fault is it that that's so?
It's irrelevant to this particular discussion. If I say that marijuana is dangerous, because the way in which it gives you a sensation of peace and mellow can be abused by
some to continually numb their motivation such that they waste away their life smoking pot and eating cheetos... if I were to say that to you, is it relevant to the discussion of the danger whether or not god above had that intention when he made marijuana?
Does whether or not the addictive qualities of MMOG's was intentionally or unintentionally designed have any bearing on whether or not those addictive qualities exist?
- Syll
I kind of just browsed through all the posts without really reading them but this one stuck out:
QuoteThere was a study recently that showed that people who play MMOs for the most part just watch less TV.
This rings true to me... The time I would be spending in front of the tv is pretty much the time I spend playing mmo's because I have very little time to spare and mmo's are just more phun... It's like making your own cartoon/tv soap opera comedy thingie...
But the procrastination thing is also kinda true for me....
At the end of the day though, it all comes down to the people and the roleplay... Hence why I liked playing EQ and EQ2 better than any other mmo out there, because you guys and other friends were there...
I just think that people toss out the term "addiction" too freely. It is like, if I have an addiction I am really a victim and therefore, less culpable for the situation I find myself in. People who have an addiction have a physical compulsion that can make it very difficult to stop taking the drug, using the alcohol, or smoking the cigarette. Addicts usually point to the fact that there is an addiction as an excuse for their behavior.
I do believe that in the sense "addiction" is being thrown around here, anyone can be addicted to anything. Before EQ, I would sit in front of the television and do needlework or other crafts. Was that an addiction? I don't think so. I have also experienced the phenomenon of staying on-line playing for far longer than I had originally intended. However, I think that is more a function of the social aspects of the game than anything else. I truly enjoy the people and our interactions on-line. Most of the time that I find myself staying awake longer than I intended it is because someone I like wakes up as I'm about ready to quit and I want to spend time with them.
I could be doing other things. But most of my former pursuits were solitary in nature and I much prefer the interaction with others that I get in-game. I truly do not think I spend more time in-game than I used to with combined reading, crafting, and television watching.
QuotePeople who have an addiction have a physical compulsion that can make it very difficult to stop taking the drug, using the alcohol, or smoking the cigarette.
So is "gambling addiction" just an excuse to you then? Last I was in Vegas slot machines don't inject you with anything.
Here's the thing. Not all of the chemicals in your body come from outside your body. Your body makes it's own. Certainly every woman here can attest to the manner in which variances in body chemistry can change their attitude and their behaviour.
Just because you don't puke your guts out when you stop gambling or online gaming doesn't mean that you can't develop an addiction to it.
Likewise, just because you're addicted to something doesn't mean you can't freely stop doing it. It just means it's difficult (sometimes very difficult). It means that it requires a lot of work and willpower on your part, and maybe even help from someone who cares about you to break free.
To effectively say "There's nothing stopping you from breaking your habit so quit bitching" is to fundamentally misunderstand how addictions work.
If someone tells you they're addicted to something, instead of hearing "I'm a lazy bastard and this is my excuse to keep on doing it", try hearing "I want to quit, but this is really f***ing difficult, please help me if you can".
- Syll
Quote from: Syllestrae on October 19, 2006, 07:42:04 AM
....
Dee and I are trying to explain the mechanisms through which MMOG's swallowed whole chunks of our lives. We're trying to help you understand, as FYI, why they can be so addictive and how they can destroy parts of someone's life.
And the feedback we're getting ranges from "Maybe staying in your craphole of a job for years on end or flunking out of college and living with your parents fand working retail was good for you!" to "All addictions are the same and if you hadn't gotten hooked on MMOG's you would've gotten hooked on something else."
....
- Syll
Ok, I guess need to address the original hypothesis of this argument, then. Let me know if I misquote/paraphrase you. I'll try not to.
Quote from: Syllestrae on October 18, 2006, 01:10:27 PM
QuoteI would never go so far as comparing MMOG games to drug addictions
/shrug, I would :p
So, in this quote Syll says that MMO games and drug addictions are comparable.
Quote from: DeeCaudill on October 18, 2006, 03:13:48 PM
I would argue that MMOGs with their reward structure and social design tend to be a much more consuming passion than other ways for people compared to mundane alternative activities.
I play the mandolin and enjoy it, but I'd never be able to spend thirty-plus hours a week over a period of months playing like I could with MMOGs. I think there is a difference for many people in their ability to walk away from a MMOG compared to other passtimes and hobbies
I think that's why people liken it to drug addiction.
Dee argues here that the reward structure and social design of MMOs are why people liken it to drug addictions.
Quote from: DeeCaudill on October 18, 2006, 04:39:04 PM
Quoteif you're inclined to procrastinating, you'll find something to procrastinate with.
I would argue that you can't break a cycle of procrastination without quitting an MMOG if it happens to be the primary enabling factor for the behavior. My personal experience bears this out. For a run of about four years I was absolutely miserable at my job. Around that time I started playing EQ and it became an easy escape from a very real problem (cruddy job). Instead of doing what needed to be done, I came home from work, logged in, and ignored the real roots of my discontent. Eventually I broke out of the cycle about three years ago and made the changes I should have taken when I started playing EQ.
I'm not saying MMOGs are somehow systematically addictive for everyone, which is why I don't like the comparison to drug or alcohol addiction. When I say that there are some similarities to addiction, it is because of the sorts of extreme behavior that I've seen in myself and others that stem from using MMOGs as an escape mechanism. The Skinner reward structure of MMOGs can give them a stronger hold on certain types of people. I happen to be one of them.
Here Dee argues that you cannot quit procrastinating if MMOs enable you to procrastinate. Dee doesn't like the comparison of MMOs to drug addiction. Dee doesn't think they are addictive for everyone, merely in their extremes they resemble each other.
Quote from: Syllestrae on October 18, 2006, 06:01:54 PM
QuoteA person who abuses MMO's to the point of it destroying their life would almost certainly do the same thing with another form of entertainment.
People who make these statements haven't experienced what it is about MMOG's that's dangerous.
I have spent several days loafing around the house, watching TV or otherwise getting nothing done. At the end of the day, I felt like I'd gotten nothing done. Relaxed, but like I'd had a lazy day. Motivated to do more with the next day, etc.
I have also spent 24 strraight hours sitting on my ass playing a MMOG. When I stood up at the end of the day, I felt like I'd accomplished something. The in-game reward system tricks your mind into thinking you've been busy and productive.
I'm not saying MMOG's make people do anything. People have free will. I'm just saying they're sirens. They're deceitful and they entice and the unprepared can lose significant chunks of their time to them.
- Syll
Syll characterizes MMOs as having a dangerous component. That they lure people into losing large chunks of time and make you think you spent it productively.
Quote
- Syll: MMO games and drug addictions are comparable.
- Syll: MMOs have a dangerous component. They lure people into losing large chunks of time and make you think you spent it productively.
- Dee: The reward structure and social design of MMOs are why people liken them to drug addictions.
- Dee: You cannot quit procrastinating if MMOs enable you to procrastinate.
- Dee: I don't like the comparison of MMOs to drug addiction.
- Dee: MMOs are not addictive for everyone and merely in their extremes do they resemble each other.
Quote from: Syllestrae on October 19, 2006, 07:45:57 AM
QuoteThat is true, but you said they were dangerous. Who made them dangerous?
If it's not the designers fault then whose fault is it that that's so?
It's irrelevant to this particular discussion. If I say that marijuana is dangerous, because the way in which it gives you a sensation of peace and mellow can be abused by some to continually numb their motivation such that they waste away their life smoking pot and eating cheetos... if I were to say that to you, is it relevant to the discussion of the danger whether or not god above had that intention when he made marijuana?
Does whether or not the addictive qualities of MMOG's was intentionally or unintentionally designed have any bearing on whether or not those addictive qualities exist?
- Syll
Syll, it is relevant because the design elements (reward structure and social design) of an MMO were touched on as a reason why people liken MMO to drug addictions. As you have stated, you believe that the two are comparable and how that comparison is drawn is the subject of this debate.
You have said MMO's are dangerous because they lure people into losing large chunks of time. Is it relevant whether or not the designers meant for them to be abused in such a manner as to cause this? Drugs are all concocted with the specific intention to cause a potentially harmful physical/mental states. I think it's relevant to note that MMO's differ in that they were not made to cause damage to the user. The user uses them to hurt themselves.
Drugs are addictive in and of themselves. In MMO's the person themselves is addictive, and MMOs are merely a device for playing that out. That's why I agree with Dee: MMO's are not comparable to drugs. You have to address them in completely different ways.
I've always been constantly told by others I'm 'addicted' to MMO's. I suppose I could be in denial, but sometimes I will decide I don't want to play and be gone for 6-12 months or more. During that time I almost never even let MMOs cross my mind. When I play them, I get serious because I believe that if you want people to be serious about playing you need to reciprocate.
Nailing down what makes a person 'addicted' is extremely difficult, especially when the addiction is probably closer to obsessive/compulsive behavior than what a traditional addiction entails. I do feel bad for both of ya, and I'm glad you seem much happier now. I just don't think what happened bore any resemblance to drug addiction, which is a very ugly problem that you are lucky not to have to deal with.
As far as gambling, shopping, internet, fast food or other purely mental addictions I think the situation is much the same: They need to be catagorized away from drug and alcohol dependancies because their nature is closer to O/C. Drug addictions generally require you take your *entire* life apart to fix. O/C disorders can be treated much more easily, but still do demand much of the person breaking them, and their loved ones.
Quote from: Syllestrae on October 19, 2006, 11:44:46 AM
So is "gambling addiction" just an excuse to you then? Last I was in Vegas slot machines don't inject you with anything.
I personally think that "gambling addiction" is a misnomer. It should be a gambling compulsion.
My belief is that the term addiciton should be reserved for a physical dependency on a substance that is introduced to the body from an outside source...like alcohol addiction, drug addiction, etc.
The problem with MMO's is that they can become obsessions which lead to compulsive, destructive behavior on the part of some individuals. It took two years of paxil and buspar to help me overcome my obsessive/compulsive tendencies. My "addiction" (Really should be my "obsessive-compulsive behavior") to EQ was one of the things that I needed to overcome.
Fortunately, I finally found balance. I still play 2 to 3 hours each night...sometimes a bit longer...but I also go to a job that I love everyday, work out regularly, go to martial arts classes, etc. The only thing I don't do so much of anymore is watch TV or date....and I can probably blame EQ2 for that, if I have to be honest. But then....if I do meet someone I really like, I have no doubt that EQ2 would go out the window as I would have something better to do in the evenings.
Damnit, I accidentally paged back and my whole reply got deleted.
Suffice it to say that if you want to create a distinction between physical addiction and compulsive behaviour, cogniscent of the fact that both are disorders, I'm fine with that.
Lookit all us junkies... :brfm
I think there lots of good points made in this thread. I think it's enlightening how many of us have gone through "compulsive MMOG" states and eventually found a way to moderate or stop. It may be an additiction-like experience, but it has to be easier to drop than any chemical dependency.
I do feel a tremendous amount of regret for the decisions I made in regard to my MMOG habits. Some of you have known me for a long time, and I don't want anyone to feel like they are somehow a part of that regret. It's all about me and how I let things affect me, not about the people I met along the way.
Here's some stuff on compulsive gambling:
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001520.htm (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001520.htm)
Here are the symptoms. If you have 5 or more you're considered to have the disorder.
Preoccupation with gambling (spending much of the time thinking about gambling, such as past experiences, or ways to get more money to gamble with) Needing to gamble larger amounts of money in order to feel excitement
Repeated unsuccessful attempts to cut back or quit gambling Restlessness or irritability when trying to cut back or quit gambling
Gambling to escape problems or feelings of sadness or anxiety Chasing losses (gambling larger amounts of money to try to make back previous losses)
Lying about the amount of time or money spent gambling Committing crimes to get money to gamble
Loss of job, significant relationship, or educational or career opportunity due to gambling Need to borrow money for survival due to gambling losses I bolded ones which were true for me if you substitute online gaming for gambling. I never lost money to online gaming itself, but I was skipping work and/or not working in order to play more, living off my savings until I ran out. After that I started lying to my parents about misc expenses so I could borrow enough money to make rent (pretended I'd damaged my car, needed some new dress shoes, etc).
- Syll
PS:
QuotePathological gambling is a brain disease that seems to be similar to disorders such as alcoholism and drug addiction.
neener neener :p
I deal with people with substance abuse addictions every day. It is part of my job. I see people literally lose their children and their lives because of it. I don't think that I call them a loser or tell them to just get over it. But I do tell them that they are responsible for their own decisions and their own lives. I do tell them that part of overcoming their addiction is recognizing that they have the freedom to choose and that with that freedom comes the obligation to accept responsibility for their lives.
Quote from: Syllestrae on October 19, 2006, 01:30:01 PM
Here's some stuff on compulsive gambling:
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001520.htm (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001520.htm)
Here are the symptoms. If you have 5 or more you're considered to have the disorder.
Preoccupation with gambling (spending much of the time thinking about gambling, such as past experiences, or ways to get more money to gamble with)
Needing to gamble larger amounts of money in order to feel excitement
Repeated unsuccessful attempts to cut back or quit gambling
Restlessness or irritability when trying to cut back or quit gambling
Gambling to escape problems or feelings of sadness or anxiety
Chasing losses (gambling larger amounts of money to try to make back previous losses)
Lying about the amount of time or money spent gambling
Committing crimes to get money to gamble
Loss of job, significant relationship, or educational or career opportunity due to gambling
Need to borrow money for survival due to gambling losses
I bolded ones which were true for me if you substitute online gaming for gambling. I never lost money to online gaming itself, but I was skipping work and/or not working in order to play more, living off my savings until I ran out. After that I started lying to my parents about misc expenses so I could borrow enough money to make rent (pretended I'd damaged my car, needed some new dress shoes, etc).
- Syll
PS: QuotePathological gambling is a brain disease that seems to be similar to disorders such as alcoholism and drug addiction.
neener neener :p
Yeah, umm.. look at the ones you didn't bold? Did you notice only one of them could possibly apply to online gaming? That indicates to me that this litmus test of gambling addiction probably needs a little conversion before it makes you an MMO addict.
QuotePathological gambling is a brain disease that seems to be similar to disorders such as alcoholism and drug addiction.
This
seems to be a well researched scientific quote, until you find out exactly how large the generalization could be. As Aqualung almost famously said 'A nod
seems to be as good as a wink to a blind horse.' And what is a brain disease anyway? How are they caused, and can I see one of them on a cat scan?
I'll toss in my two cents.
We keep claiming that drugs and alcohol are physical addictions but gaming/gambling are not because there is no actual substance ingested.
I beg that point.
I think Syll either said this or alluded to it, but there are plenty of hormones and chemicals released in the body that are utterly and absolutely addicting.
Take, for example, that rush of adrenaline when you succeed in an encounter ig. Or that flush of joy when you figure out a quest.
Gaming brings with it a whole host of internal chemical reactions that can be quite addicting.
And chemical addictions are chemical addictions whether you ingest them or inspire them through your gaming/gambling.
QuoteYeah, umm.. look at the ones you didn't bold? Did you notice only one of them could possibly apply to online gaming? That indicates to me that this litmus test of gambling addiction probably needs a little conversion before it makes you an MMO addict.
How about this...
How about just trusting the fact that when I say that online games had a very strong hold on me, one that cost me my education and friendships and significantly delayed my growth as a person, that you just take that at face value instead of trying to debate with me about it?
I'm not saying that
you are addicted to online games. I know next to nothing about how you approach or play online games or the impact they have on your life. I'm saying that
I was addicted to them... I shouldn't have to argue that point.
Ok, coll it a bit here.
Going back to the beginning, Dee started this thread with this statement...
QuoteI would never go so far as comparing MMOG games to drug addictions and they never account for the whole explanation of how someone's life got off track.
And Syll, disagreed.
After that, the discussion has been real constructive.
Let's make sure we don't get personal.
Dee, Syll and Namae are some of our most "discussion-oriented" people we have on these boards. Make sure to keep the discussion geared towards the topic.
Quote from: Syllestrae on October 19, 2006, 05:41:30 PM
How about this...
How about just trusting the fact that when I say that online games had a very strong hold on me, one that cost me my education and friendships and significantly delayed my growth as a person, that you just take that at face value instead of trying to debate with me about it?
I'm not saying that you are addicted to online games. I know next to nothing about how you approach or play online games or the impact they have on your life. I'm saying that I was addicted to them... I shouldn't have to argue that point.
With all due respect.. I wasn't doubting your personal experiences. You have a much deeper insight into your own life, and when you say you were addicted to MMOs, I trust and believe you.
What I was challenging was the intellectual honesty of converting a test made for gambling addicts over to test for MMOs by a simple word replacement. They're very different things, and what might be acceptable for MMOs (e.g. playing every night) might be too much for gambling and vice versa. I suppose I left that avenue open when I stated clumping gambliing, shopping, and other psychological compulsionss/addictions together.
I apologize if my interpretation was left open, and seemed to doubt your integrity. I'm doing my best to not make personal judgements a part of my side of this debate, as I consider that highly impolite.
Quote from: Lyrima on October 19, 2006, 03:53:06 PM
I'll toss in my two cents.
We keep claiming that drugs and alcohol are physical addictions but gaming/gambling are not because there is no actual substance ingested.
I beg that point.
I think Syll either said this or alluded to it, but there are plenty of hormones and chemicals released in the body that are utterly and absolutely addicting.
Take, for example, that rush of adrenaline when you succeed in an encounter ig. Or that flush of joy when you figure out a quest.
Gaming brings with it a whole host of internal chemical reactions that can be quite addicting.
And chemical addictions are chemical addictions whether you ingest them or inspire them through your gaming/gambling.
A key difference is that you cannot be put into a state of endophin withdrawal, as you can with alcohol and drug withdrawal. As well, you do not gradually build tolerance to chemicals released in your brain.
Drug/alcohol dependencies includes a toxic reward/penalty system. It's not just the highs that hook you. The lows when you aren't using also help to worsen your dependancy by motivating you to get high again at any cost. Added to that are the gradual increase in dosage that a physical addiction requires, along with the actual damage it does to the brain, liver, kidneys and other internal organs. It can lead to a state of hopelessness, when one has literally nothing (mentally or physically) left but chasing the next high because even if they stopped they wouldn't be good for a job, a family, relationships, and they've thrown those all away in any case.
I think it's safe to say that drugs or alcohol are much more damaging and addicting than a simple happy buzz, as chemically similiar as it seems. Your body is meant to process those happy chemicals. These brain chemicals are meant as a reward that's supposed to reinforce positive biological behavior like caring for a loved one, being successful, eating something comforting, or even successful risk taking. I could even argue that to some extent humans are designed to be 'hooked' on these chemicals. For example new mothers have brains that flush with oxytocin when they breastfeed. It's a chemical the encourages pleasant happy feelings and a bonding instinct... similiar to the effects of the drug Ecstasy(the hug-drug), but without the increased chance of heart failure and other risk factors.
I have done damage to my kidneys because of gaming but that's a whole other topic. :2funny:
Ok ok Namae :kia
I was just tossing out an idea I had.
*snuggles wise and wonderful Namae*
HEY! Did NO ONE look at the site I linked??
/pouts
People who play video games are idiots.
Hey, is anyone picking up Marvel Ultimate Alliance this week? Woo! :viking2:
This is where Kemmy's Belly Dancing emoticon comes in handy... Where is the bellydancing emoticon?
WHERE IS KEMMY?!!! I miss... :'(
Justice League Heroes looks good though, Beeker.
http://justiceleagueheroes.warnerbros.com/ (http://justiceleagueheroes.warnerbros.com/)
I have a 360. This is for some antiquated system.