Saga branch for The Old Republic

[Sons of Halas]

Chailan and I have been following The Old Republic for a long time now and we fully plan on playing at launch.  We have come to agree that we would rather see a branch of Saga in TOR rather than joining another guild.  You guys are the greatest.  I love you guys and it would be great if by chance any of you happened to swing over there for a bit if we had a home for everyone.

The thing about TOR is that it is very heavy on story and they have crafted 8 extensive and unique stories to be experienced.  Four for the Republic and 4 for the Empire.  We believe that it would be detrimental to the experience of the game to keep Saga purely good guys whereas in EQ2 it is not such a big deal.  There is a lot to experience in the game and to only guild up for one side would be pretty limiting.

We propose, of course with permission, that when the time comes to form up in TOR under the great Saga banner.  We love this family.  The people, the attitudes, the personalities and we would like to carry on the great tradition into TOR.

Is this at all possible? 

Thank you for your time.

[Chaile]

Konnar's made his very formal, very reasonable statements.  Now it's MY turn. 

Saga took me in and gave me a home.  I'm grateful, and I love every one of you like at least a distant cousin.

As Konnar said, we've been following this game for a long time now, both of us from the day of announcement.  TOR in a very real sense brought us together as friends, and brought me to Saga and all you wonderful people.  I want all of you with us, and we'll conquer the galaxy!

[Vilidius]

I'm just floating my opinion here, so take that for what it's worth, but I'm interested in this question since I just asked something very similar about a Saga "guild" (they don't really have guilds) for FFXIV.  I guess as a founding member of Saga in both EQ1 and EQ2 (in the pic with the seven or so people who formed the guild in EQ2, I'm the barbarian looking sideways) I might have some view on the issue.

I've always seen the "good and neutral only" stance within Saga as a nod towards consistent RP.  Saga was founded amongst a group of players with both IC and OOC identities and those identities were simply incompatible with certain kinds of association.  No amount of bending could, as an example, prompt a particular dwarven cleric to ever group with a Dark Elf - much less guild with one.  So rather than ask players to effectively shelve their RP Saga adopted a policy of good and neutral only.  Which makes perfect sense.  Then Saga in EQ2 was a conceptual extension of Saga in EQ1.  It was even, in some sense, a theoretical continuation of it.  I believe some players had RP connections back to the EQ1 version of Saga.

The thing is, when we decided that Saga was good/neutral only, I don't believe anyone at that time even considered what it would mean to be a multi-game guild.  Or maybe "clan" as they are more commonly called now.  That's a very new MMO phenomenon.  And I think it's great.  I can't tell you what it means to think about getting back into MMOs and to find the chance of even a few old friends there.  But I think I can safely say we never thought about what the good/neutral thing might be as a portable issue for RP in, for example, a galaxy far far away.  So if anyone were to suggest that issue was decided long ago I'd disagree.

Personally, my view is that a good/evil policy needs to be negotiated game by game.  There's no IC impetus to be consistent between Norrath and Hyberion or the world of Star Wars or whatever the heck Aion takes place.  The same issue - that the guild must not demand people completely destroy their RP to be in it - obviously does apply.  But the challenges and the implications of that ideal are always going to vary.

I guess I'm speaking now both as a golden oldie and also as the prospective founder of a small chapter of Saga myself, transplanted into new ground.  I can't claim my views are cannon here, but I'd be interested to hear what others think too.

Val

[Sons of Halas]

Thank you for your input.  I can easily live with two Saga guilds if we would have to keep them separate, however would still like to get two going under the Saga/Morag Tong style of business if possible.  It really would be very limiting to the gameplay to not allow Members to be either faction.

[Titia]

Regarding a Saga group in TOR I'm all for it, I too am following (lightly) this game development and intend to play when it comes out.

As for the "orientation" of the guild, how about keeping Saga as the banner for the good/neutral part, and bring back from the ashes the guild that was created in SW Galaxies (what was that name again, can't remember ?) for the darker path ?

[Anaris]

Just as an FYI...when we had Saga in WoW it was actually Horde-alligned.  We were eeeeeebil in WoW...  But, of course, our evilness was comparable to, uh, The Three Stooges.  It was just cause we had to pick sides and everyone wanted to be orcs for some reason, heh.   However, we did not use the name Saga, we used the name Sequel for our Ebil WoW guild.  I can't remember if it was because the name Saga wasn't available or because we wanted to differentiate it from the traditionally good version.  I believe the discussions on that are in the WoW section of the forums if you guys want to take a look.

I'd be happy to see a Saga branch in TOR, whether good/neutral/evil.  I do believe Saga's stance on that is decided on a case-by-game issue.

[Jasyn]

The name of the Sequel guild in WoW was definitely chosen to differentiate from the alignments Saga has traditionally held while also being a nod to the original OOC ideals Saga holds since we run up against these sorts of good/neutral versus evil discussions from time to time.  Hence, Sequel was intended as a sequel to the Saga since it was just us but on the other side of the faction fence.  I distinctly recall Elloisie very thoughtfully choosing/suggesting such a name for the WoW chapter.

Speaking from the outside in, I guess in a way, Morag Tong in EQ2 is something like that conceptually except that Sequel in WoW was formally organized with Saga-based recruiting practices (I think it was our first attempt formalizing a multi-game presence under the Saga Family umbrella) whereas Morag Tong just happens to be a Dark-class based guild established by Saga players for their ebil(ish) alts or mains.  If that makes sense.  I may be off base here, but that's my interpretation of it.

And I think the name of the SWG guild Denny is searching for is G.E.O.  (Galactic Exploration Organization or somesuch).  I think Namae and Luste ended up being the torchbearers for that banner; I'm just trying to regurgitate facts I picked up here, there, and yonder.

So it seems like by now most would likely be fairly comfortable leaning toward a Saga and/or Saga-alter-ego co-existence just judging by precedent.

[Kelora]

Names aren't so important as the people gathering under that name. So far as I know we've only used "Saga" in EQ, EQ2, and Vanguard.

Better to pick something that fits the genre so long as folks that are interested know where to look and who to get in touch with once there.

[Chaile]

Names aren't so important as the people gathering under that name. So far as I know we've only used "Saga" in EQ, EQ2, and Vanguard.

Better to pick something that fits the genre so long as folks that are interested know where to look and who to get in touch with once there.

That's what I'm talking about!  Whether we wind up primarily one side or the other or have our Saga/Sithaga (aren't I clever?) setup, I just want my brothers and sisters with me.  Names are far, far secondary.

[Jezerai]

We had a Saga in AoC too.  In AoC there was a very blurry line between "good" and "evil" so we did not exclude any classes.  In every other game that I've been a part of Saga in, the guild has held to the good/neutral alignment.  Evil guilds that are affiliated with Saga have not taken the Saga name.  I have no objection to playing evil characters, but I would not want to see Saga become a hodge-podge of alignments.  Having been in some non or light RP guilds, I can see that that does not foster RP.  That being said, I would have no objection if the lore of TOR made this a non-issues, as it did in AoC.  I suspect though that allowing all in would result in a guild where you would have Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader types housed under the same banner.  That just doesn't work from an RP sense, imo.

[Sons of Halas]

We had a Saga in AoC too.  In AoC there was a very blurry line between "good" and "evil" so we did not exclude any classes.  In every other game that I've been a part of Saga in, the guild has held to the good/neutral alignment.  Evil guilds that are affiliated with Saga have not taken the Saga name.  I have no objection to playing evil characters, but I would not want to see Saga become a hodge-podge of alignments.  Having been in some non or light RP guilds, I can see that that does not foster RP.  That being said, I would have no objection if the lore of TOR made this a non-issues, as it did in AoC.  I suspect though that allowing all in would result in a guild where you would have Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader types housed under the same banner.  That just doesn't work from an RP sense, imo.

I understand that.  The lore will not allow for a blurry line between good and evil.  We are at war.  So, it would be good to go if we made the TOR Saga branch Republic-style and formed under another banner for the Imperial side?

[Chaile]

We had a Saga in AoC too.  In AoC there was a very blurry line between "good" and "evil" so we did not exclude any classes.  In every other game that I've been a part of Saga in, the guild has held to the good/neutral alignment.  Evil guilds that are affiliated with Saga have not taken the Saga name.  I have no objection to playing evil characters, but I would not want to see Saga become a hodge-podge of alignments.  Having been in some non or light RP guilds, I can see that that does not foster RP.  That being said, I would have no objection if the lore of TOR made this a non-issues, as it did in AoC.  I suspect though that allowing all in would result in a guild where you would have Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader types housed under the same banner.  That just doesn't work from an RP sense, imo.

Having looked over the TOR forums, as of now the guild recruitment setup there is Republic/Empire/Undecided.  I'm reasonably sure that we WILL have to have a second banner.  The light/dark setup is going to be such, AS I UNDERSTAND IT (I can't stress that enough, we're operating in a LOT of uncertainty here) that moral alignment and political affiliation are going to be two separate things.

This is a spot where it could get hairy.  As a Jedi, for example, you'll never leave and join the Sith.  You're still serving the Republic.  The question then becomes the MEANS, rather than the ends.  This leads to good RP scenarios to my mind - dramatic tension (that's as distinct from Drama, which personally makes me want to hurl).  You could wind up pretty damn dark, but you'll still be on the Republic side.

So while you wouldn't end up with Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader under the same roof, you could very well wind up with Luke Skywalker and Anakin Skywalker in there.

[Menemas]

Each branch of Saga has been able to determine its own alignments and such.  We have tended to gravitate towards good/neutral, but the decision was made to leave the decision to the leaders/members of each branch.  I forget where its written down......but its probably in the archives somewhere.

Menemas

[Askari]

Will we allow Ewok X-Wing pilots? Yub, yub!

------------------------------------------------

"His name is Kettch, and he's an Ewok."
"No."
"Oh, yes. Determined to fight. You should hear him say, 'Yub, yub.' He makes it a battle cry."
"Wes, assuming he could be educated up to Alliance fighter-pilot standards, an Ewok couldn't even reach an X-wing's controls."
"He wears arm and leg extensions, prosthetics built for him by a sympathetic medical droid. And he's anxious to go, Commander."
"Please tell me you're kidding."
"Of course I'm kidding. Pilot-candidate number one is a Human female from Tatooine, Falynn Sandskimmer."
"I'm going to get you, Janson."
"Yub, yub, Commander."
―Wes Janson and Wedge Antilles

[Jezerai]

I like the idea of moral alignment and political alignment being different.  That could give us some real possibilities for a dynamic mix.

As for historically, I'm not an old-timer like Menemas, but I recall there being a big hullaballoo about the name of the guild in WoW not being "Saga" because the alignment was evil.  I didn't pay huge amounts of attention because I was not a WoW player but it struck me at the time because it seemed to hit people very intensely.  The same crept up a bit in AoC because some of the classes there had a distinctly evil flavor but it was allowed.  Of course Saga had dwindled quite a bit by then and most everyone who was left was going to play AoC so maybe that's why it didn't stir things up the same way.

I like the idea of having dual guilds like the Saga/Morag Tong set up that has come about in EQ2.  Though I don't know that Kage set out to make a dark side Saga, it has been nice to have that alternative. 

[Jasyn]

I like the idea of moral alignment and political alignment being different.  That could give us some real possibilities for a dynamic mix.

This sounds like it could be pretty cool.

I recall there being a big hullaballoo about the name of the guild in WoW not being "Saga" because the alignment was evil.

This is truth... although I don't remember it being quite as big as a hullabaloo.  Maybe more of a hubbub.

But it was enough discussion to spur the invention of the Sequel alter-ego.

[Chaile]

I like the idea of moral alignment and political alignment being different.  That could give us some real possibilities for a dynamic mix.

It really does!  It gives sort of landmark posts for good RP action.  I EVEN HAVE AN EXAMPLE!

Three different Jedi Knights.  Obi-Wan Kenobi, Qui-Gon Jinn, and Anakin Skywalker.  All three of them are "good" in the sense that they serve the Republic as best they can.  But each has very different ideas as to how that works.

Obi-Wan plays by the rules, follows orders, and does good by it.  Qui-Gon doesn't exactly play by the rules, focuses on doing what's right at the moment, and keeps it real.  Anakin... by any means necessary.

And THE HORDE IS NOT EVIL!!  Well, except the Undead but they never shoulda let them in in the first place.   

[Titia]

Meanwhile, in a Galaxy far, far away...

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/setView/videos/gameID/367/videoId/1807

[Jezerai]

I think that looks fun! 

[Sons of Halas]

I think that looks fun!

Understatement noted. 

That vid makes my pants tight.