TOR on Preorder

[Titia]

Well, I believe a few already expressed in past posts the intend to form a Saga guild in TOR so I suppose there will be a Saga chapter on the Force side there. From what I remember it was for PVE-RP oriented worlds and this is why I reserved the guild name 'Saga' on this kind of server (not sure that one will hold though).

As for growing our rank, as Phillion reminded us being part of the family on top of being part of Saga in a particular game board has been a choice left to newcomer via the veteranship application for a long time now (at least since VG, possibly EQ2 but I'm not sure as I joined the game 'late'). I see no reason not to have this rule part of the TOR-Saga charter and board ruleset.

A new trailer was shown at SDCC and is available btw: http://www.swtor.com/media/trailers/join-fight

Doesn't show much more that the others though ...

[Mixxi]

Too bad we can't just get everyone from the Fellowship to make a TOR guild. Then we could have numbers and the quality of RP/nice people we want, too.

I think a big part of this discussion is the effort needed to grow a guild like Saga. I don't know what the application process in EQII was, but in EQ applying to Saga required a lot of thought from both the applicant and the guild. As we've all grown older and taken on new responsibilities work and family-wise, I'm not sure any of us have the time anymore to put in that kind of time as part of a guild administration team. It was a fabulous quality-control device and led to well-developed characters and relationships, but it took a lot of effort, too. I'm not even sure if that's a possibility anymore. But then, I've really been out of the loop for a long time, so you guys may well have found a way to streamline the process.

--Mixxi (Carol)

[Alirrin]

Another consideration is that when EQ was "the game", it was the only game. Even EQ2 only really had WoW as competition (and that came a good deal after EQ2 was going solid), so there was a high population of gamers in one place from which to draw members. Now the online game world is so vast that the population is spread out, and even serious RPers have a lot of options, so there just aren't as many people in a given game to choose from.  Combine that with Mixxi's observations, and it really isn't surprising that growing a quality guild is tough.

[Vilidius]

/nod to all

On the upside, there are advantages in "modern" gaming that help a bit.

First, guild management tools are stronger.  You can have someone "in" the guild without throwing the door wide open to them.  I've become a fan of allowing relatively loose guild invites - even to the point of meeting someone cool, grouping with them for a while, and inviting them to join - with the understanding that a recruit doesn't become a full member immediately.  You can use the ranks to reflect and adopt that, with limited privileges in a variety of ways.  True, the guild tag is there (it would be cool if it could say recruit!) but even if you accidentally invite the wrong person the potential damage is minimal.

Second, voice chat is becoming almost a prerequiste.  I hated it at first but now I can't go back.  Sometimes I prefer to play with it off and the option to do that is nice.  But if you PvP at all the difference is so huge and the advantage is so great that it's beyond question.  Even if you're just PvE, but doing something challenging, it can be amazing.  Just imagine if we could have been talking when we were raiding Sky?  Man...

I don't like all of what voice chat does to the game, but it does mean that you get to know people much faster and better.  Even when you aren't grouped.  There's typically just one lobby for the guild and you're in it most of the time.  You know pretty soon if you really like someone or not.

Oh, and on top of all that.  For a guild that is playing multiple games, we can be in different "rooms" on the same chat server.  So we could just as easily be chatting with old friends in Rift... 

So with all that said, I think we have some tools we can use if we want to grow Saga in TOR.  It's really just a question of being flexible and embracing the new.  Not sure if that's ever been our strong suit, but the option is there at least.  =)

[Alirrin]

On the other side of the coin, I have *never* had a good experience with voice chat.  The times I have tried it I found it nearly impossible to actually carry on useful conversations - it was hard to understand anyone, if multiple people try to talk they interfere with each other horribly, and I ended up just turning it off and using typed chat again.  Bonus with typed chat: it's all there in history, and if you missed something you just scroll back. ;-)

[Vilidius]

Not sure what you've tried, but the chat clients that are native to the game usually suck.  Even Ventrillo isn't that good anymore.  TeamSpeak3 is pretty sleek and very functional.  And apparently that's being superseded by something called Mumble, but I haven't tried it yet.

Not criticizing anyone's choices here, but part of the reason we have trouble recruiting new people is that Saga is still running the guild like it's 2002.  Now it's possible that changing too much would make Saga not Saga anymore.  If that's the case, it would probably be better to fade away.  But I am interested to know how others feel about it, and if we'd like to experiment more in TOR.

[Lyrima]

Pretty sure it was in EQ2 that we had a huge discussion about teamspeak and what ended up happening is that those who liked it, used it and those who didn't, didn't.

I'm one who didn't.

I never felt left out of any conversation.  Apparently those who are able to game and talk, can also effectively type in chat   Once or twice I listened in --mostly because I said little.  That was fine too.

I think the folks creating a Saga guild should be given a wide latitude to create whatever appropriate gaming environment works best.  The only caveat is that the focus remain on RP and leaning toward the good side.

Personally, if I used teamspeak, my RP would fall right off.  Then again, when I'm in a large group, I'm not RPing much anyway.  I lost that multitask ability looong ago.

Honestly, as I write this post, I'm thinking that the best compromise might be to focus RP interactions in text and OOC to teamspeak.  We could still monitor the text ooc, but it just make sense...and might build stronger ties.  I know hearing someone's voice makes me feel like I know them that much more.

[Askari]

My initial impressions of voice chat were very negative. I hated it for the following reasons:

1) I couldn't stand using my male voice when playing a female toon.
2) I was extremely hesitant to talk, because I always seemed to start to say something just when someone else did.
3) I often had serious "consistency" issues where some people's volumes were very low and other's were very high.
4) People tend to blather a lot about non-game, totally OOC stuff.
5) I didn't like wearing headphones, but didn't want to have echoes going from speaker to mic.

But the last couple years, when I've dipped my toes into voice (AoC, Fallen Earth, and a few times with Jandrea's Vigilance guild in Rift)... it's been much better, more organized, more natural feeling, and enjoyable.

For the male voice/female toon thing... I usually bond more with my male toons anyway. The main reason I roll female toons is because sometimes I like the female model/armor style better than the male model/armor. But that's not huge, and most of my mains are male these days.

I can see where this would still be a concern for actual female gamers who would prefer not to have the unwanted attention that can come from some guys when they know you are a woman.

Once you get familiar with the software, there are ways to tune each user's audio indivdually. After you've chatted with the same folks for a bit, you end up getting them all dialed-in right.

Nowadays people standardly set up a wide variety of rooms. A lobby, which is often a bustle of noise and confusion. An RP channel. Various dungeon/raid channels. Password-protected officer channels. Et cetera.

For comfort, once I realized I was actually interested in doing this some time, I was able to find a good headset that worked well for me.

In other words... I've warmed up considerably to the idea of voice chat in MMO's. In AoC, just listening to the lobby chatter allowed me to "get to know" guildies a lot faster and feel more comfortable. It also gave me some insight into who I wanted to avoid... or if the guild was even the right fit for me.

In Fallen Earth, tuning-in to the lobby of "The Older Gamers" was often hilarious and usually interesting/useful. But sometimes I would just opt-out, if I wanted to immerse myself in my character while soloing. People would shoot me a /tell or /guild text if they needed to chat.

Having the option of hopping into voice to help someone with a question, or to take on a hard dungeon with a group, is really handy. In fact it's almost too handy to avoid.

The bottom line is that voice in multiplayer gaming has "arrived" and it's not going away. And since I love gaming and plan to be gaming thirty years from now... I've resigned myself to not only getting used to it... but actually learning to enjoy it.

[Vilidius]

I think Askari's summary of the pros and cons of voicechat is great.  To reply to some of those points:

- Echo and relative volume controls are getting way better.  You can tune individual people if you need to.  Better yet, by fiddling with the program and getting a good one you can make it adjust automatically. 
- Roleplaying in voice chat probably can be even more awesome than in text.  Isn't that how we all started, with good friends?  It's a higher level of commitment though, and I'm not sure it would be embraced or that I'm ready for it myself.  That is a problem, yes, and I'll freely admit I've always been RP lite.  Maybe better suited to text/offline.
- It kicks the holy hell out of gendered play.  Doesn't have to, but yeah, guys playing women with male voices will always seem odd to me.  Well, so be it.  We always knew most of them were dudes anyway.

I doubt I could do without live chat anymore.  If I were writing "rules" for a guild (these are rules I'm now used to) I wouldn't say people must use it all the time, but it's pretty much a prerequisite for challenging content and/or PvP.  I know not everyone loves it, but remember that not everyone takes naturally to typing either.  We've always been willing to impose that as a requirement.

[Jezerai]

I kind of consider myself a both sides of the fencer when it comes to gaming.  I love RP and developing my characters.  I also love to play the game and have done a bit of raiding, even going so far as to join raiding guilds in EQ2 and Vanguard.  But when I am RPing, I want to immerse myself totally in my character.  Guild chat that has too much OOC in it is really off-putting and so I like to have a separate place for OOC to take place.  For me, it's a natural for that place to be in voice chat.  I totally agree that you really cannot do a raid or even a more difficult dungeon without it.  And, like Askari said, I've even gotten to enjoy it.  Chatting with people does make you feel like you know them.  I have never run into problems because I am female.  And there are a lot more females playing than you seem to think, Valquiss! 

I hate using headphones and would be interested in knowing what ones you found, Askari. 

In addition to adjusting volumes, you can mute people who are irritating or constantly talking trivia.

I do not think I would ever feel comfortable roleplaying in voice.  I would just be too self-concious to do it.  And yeah, a female voice being associated with a male character, or vice versa would just be too wierd.  It's bad enough when you discover that that huge tank type has a high-pitched pre-puberty voice.  I just couldn't dig it.  However, I have no problem roleplaying with that person and not thinking twice about his/her's real-life gender when typing, even when we are in voice chat doing a raid at the same time.  Go figure.

In short, I think using voice chat for OOC gaming and chatting while reserving IG text for roleplay would work well.  It would certainly be the most comfortable option for me.

[Alirrin]

I must be in far more of a minority than I realized: people who game while in the same room with people doing other things.  My PC is in the living room, and when I'm gaming I have to consider my wife and daughter. Even if my personal problems using voice chat didn't exist, I would still be talking nonstop why they are trying to read or watch tv. Is there really no one else in this situation?

And of course this leads to the problem of being left out ... if a group decides to do a dungeon and use voice chat for primary communication, I can't go. (I did try that once, the group leader assured me and the one other person who wasn't doing ventrilo that important information would be in typed chat, but the other three people just didn't want to do it that way.) If OOC is taken to voice chat, I don't get to participate in that part of the guild life.

Sorry if I seem a bit dour ... it's early, I just woke up and have a smidge of a headache, and really ought to be logging in to work now ... yay ...

[Lyrima]

You aren't alone Alirrin.

Blaek and I are in the living room as well, and our children aren't gaming.  That said, I think quietly talking into a mic is probably less distracting than you might imagine.  Or at least I hope so!

I've always had the music on the stereo and if folks are watching TV, I tend to join them there or we both quiet our sound so it is more individual.

I dunno. I think it would be tricky but doable most of the time, if not all the time.

Not that I'm gaming.  Not sure why I weigh in on these things   I'm frustrated because my beloved isn't interested in sitting at the computer interacting digitally when we could be snuggling on the couch.  While i ADORE the snuggling, I'm really missing the gaming. 

We've finished watching Firefly and now have started X-Files.  Even got the boy to join us for two of them, so finally the four of us together doing something low key and fun.  Unlikely that will change any time soon, so my evenings are booked.

It's a good thing, right?

[Mixxi]

My sons both use Mumble incessantly (and I mean that in a good way  ). They have a VERY tight, fun, supportive, FUNNY community on their Mumble channel. At any given time, people will be playing together in games AND just hanging out in the channel while they play solo in other games. If a particular group really needs to focus, they ask that everyone keep the channel mostly clear for a bit, and others respect that. They also make private channels.

I used to hate the awkwardness of live chat, but seeing how well this group handles it, I'm totally sold. I even bought a headset that alters my voice so that I can be "male" when I'm on my male characters.    I'm a total fossil, and I now like voice chat, so times MUST be changing! And Val--oh my god--voice chat for Sky would have been so great. So much easier to say "Don't talk to the halfling!" than to type "Don't...oh crap."

As for non-gamers being in the same room--this is a problem. My husband has a really tough time with it, even though we've all put up with the ham radio chattering away for years. He tends to stay out of the gaming room when the rest of us are jacked into the matrix.

And the spousal non-gamer is a problem, Lyrima, definitely! It's hard for me to just sit and watch TV for the companionship when I'd rather be running through a forest somewhere! If only he would come with me.

And Alirrin--I've been in similar situations to yours (when gaming in hotel rooms, for example). You can get all the information just by listening on headphones. Let people know that you just won't be talking much. I would think the family wouldn't object to an occasional "Ready" or something similar from you. And you can have sort of a hybrid typing/speaking group, as long as you can still LISTEN to the voicechat. In LOTRO, creepside, one of our main leaders just didn't do voice chat--Gobblemoss, for anyone who played creepside Landroval. I think they did it for RP reasons, spiders always being females and the player being male. Several other players just didn't have mic capabilities. Anyway, the hybrid of voice for some people and typing for others worked quite well. But I think everyone could hear the voicechat. They just did their own input either typing or speaking.

[Alirrin]

That said, I think quietly talking into a mic is probably less distracting than you might imagine.  Or at least I hope so!

Maybe, though it's hard to be quiet and be understood, at least for me.

We've finished watching Firefly and now have started X-Files.  Even got the boy to join us for two of them, so finally the four of us together doing something low key and fun.  Unlikely that will change any time soon, so my evenings are booked.

It's a good thing, right?

Family is always a good thing.  

[Jezerai]

Talking in dungeons is only necessary for the people who are (a) in charge of the group or (b) have information to give the group.  I rarely talk and lots of people don't even have a mic.  It is not disturbing to others if you are only listening through your headset. 

As far as OOC in Vent, it was just an idea.  I have no problem with OOC being typed, as long as it is in a separate channel from where I am RPing.  Or you could have both, it really doesn't matter.

As for the "Don't ... oh crap"  lol!  I've experienced that so many times!  One of the big reasons that voice in dungeons or raids is really needed.   

[Alirrin]

As for the "Don't ... oh crap"  lol!  I've experienced that so many times!  One of the big reasons that voice in dungeons or raids is really needed.   

Especially for people like me who like to interact with everything ...

[Mixxi]

One very positive side of voice chat is that, once you're comfortable with people, you can really have a personal identity. I know you can in typed chat, too, but I love hearing my older son's side of voice chat because his silly side comes out. He's home from college right now (and sitting at the computer a few feet from me right now, I might add), but I get to hear how he is in game. Perhaps his most distinctive talent is how he responds to crisis situations with what our family refers to as the SLAG maneuver--"scream like a girl". In a way, it's roleplaying, but it's roleplaying whoever you want to let your hair down and be. He's a biomedical engineering major in college, he's in a relationship that's been going for 5 years and will probably end up in marriage, but he's silly too. Not many places in real life he can do that where people get it.

Just thinking about it has gotten me curious about what Saga would be like with voicechat. I've always loved the rare opportunities I get to game with SAGA members in the same room. Playing in the same room with Tuppen, for example, didn't stop me thinking of Tuppen as his character. But there was an added layer of Allen to the character, too, and that was neat. It gives me happy chills thinking about getting ordered around on a raid by Val with the added layer of POValquiss.

You know, we could try this out in Rift.... just sayin'...  But I totally understand if Saga decides against voicechat, too.

[Lyrima]

I'm going to try to start logging in at odd moments. See how it works with Rift.

I'll figure out the headset/voice thing if others want to try   It might make me more inclined to log in, if folks are around to talk to.

And yes, I know, you gotta BE there to bring others in.

[Alirrin]

the SLAG maneuver--"scream like a girl"

I LOVE IT! 

[Vilidius]

@Alirrin - Anyone promising to type things out for those not in voice chat is probably being unrealistic.  I've tried it, and while it can work for doing low key things that people know anyway that isn't when you need voice chat anyway.  You need voice chat for primary communication during tougher, more complex things.  Hell, I remember when people in EQ actually had macroed scripts to explain things to raids...

The alternative, if you don't want to be talking, is to be in voice chat and simply listen.  With earphones on you don't really need to talk, as has been observed.  As long as you can hear what other people are doing you're 90% of the way there.