WHo has played sandbox mmos?

[Rumze]

Im actually very interested to hear about experiences from someone who has played a sandbox mmo.
SWG, Eve etc
Im not even sure what to ask to be honest. But for example, what did you do that became your endgame? Your reason to continue playing etc

[Mixxi]

I played SWG. I loved SWG. NB: All of this relates to SWG BEFORE NGE when everything went to hell and we all woke up one day to discover we couldn't use any of our armor or weapons.

Honestly, I lost track of the quests and just kind of lived my character's life. The crafting system in that game was amazing, and prospecting across the galaxy for JUST the right type of gas and building my harvesters for the precious few days before the deposit was exhausted was a game in itself.

The running battle between Empire and Rebel Alliance was engrossing as well. Many's the night I spent defending Anchorhead from Imperial incursions. I even spent time lurking in Mos Eisley alleyways spying on Empire operatives as they planned the next assault on my comrades.

There were "amusement parks," which were kind of the SWG equivalent of dungeons (Jabba's Palace springs to mind). Housing and cantinas were also a huge, enjoyable timesink. The various planets were always changing as the two warring factions gained control of various cities and made conducting business there either trivial or very, very dangerous. Player cities, too, were a lot of fun...until they became ghost towns with the NGE.

There were bounties and all sorts of jobs to be had from contractors around the galaxies. And my character was tremendously fluid, going through several profession changes while still maintaining a core set of skills with a two-handed sword. There was even gambling.

So...yeah. Sandbox. Super open-ended, but I always had plenty to do and it was pretty easy to find people to do it with. At least on Wanderhome. I have no idea how that sort of thing would have played on a non-RP server.

[Askari]

My biggest MMO regret was not playing SWG back in the day. I was in the early SWG beta, and the technical difficulties they were having in beta really turned me off from the game before it had even launched. I never gave it a fair shake.

I played EvE for a couple months. It definitely had it's interesting points (economy), but was far too PvP-oriented for me.

As for sandbox MMORPGs, I find that different people have different definitions of 'sandbox' versus 'themepark' versus 'open world'. I have zero interest in re-hashing those semantics debates, because it leads nowhere.

What I will say is that my personal definition is that sandbox feels more like I am sitting in a big blank sandbox and I decide what I want to do. I can build sand castles. I can dig holes. I can lie on my back and make sand angels.

When I think of themepark, I think of rollercoasters where my gameplay is guided on rails and tracks. I'm led by the nose through the newbie zone with newbie quests, then through the next level zone with more quests. They can be a lot of fun, but often leave you feeling like you lack choices. Some days I want to step off the rollercoaster and go to the House of Mirrors.

In reality, most MMOs are not extremes in either direction. The first few MMOs were definitely less themepark than most current MMOs, because there was so much less hand-holding. In the first EQ, you had to explore and wander and talk to a lot of NPCs to find quests (which were scarce at launch). In more recent MMOs, they are so "on rails" that when you finish with one quest giver... he gives you a quest to go find the second quest giver (conveniently marked on your map).

For me, SWTOR is a recent example of themepark gone too far. There was one zone for each level-range. You had to work through the quests in the zone, because grinding experience any other way was horrible. There was no ability to step off the rollercoaster, to find your own way, to do alternate activities... it was just a death march through the story that was thrust under my nose. It was fun to play through that story once. Once. Then I was done.

I definitely crave a more sandboxy game. One where there are a lot of choices for where to go, what to do, how to spend my time. Instead of a deathmarch through a storyline that is spoonfed to me... I want to spend hours crafting (where the products or skill gained are meaningful in the game-world)... I want to spend hours building (where people will actually see what I am building)... I want to spend hours exploring (because the world is large and/or the landscape changes).

Oh, and occasionally I want to quest. But when I quest, don't lead me from point A to point B in a linear fashion. Give me choices in the types of quests and the location of quests. Like free-association YouTube surfing, sometimes I start with one video, and an hour later I'm watching something I never would have expected.

For me, I haven't really played any sandbox MMOs recently. For non-MMO games, Minecraft was sandbox (log in and do whatever you want: explore, dig, build, raise animals, fight monsters). Single-player games had some more sandbox feel like Oblivion and Fallout 3 (there was a main storyline, but you could simply wander off in any direction and find your own trouble to get into).

The kinds of things I'm hoping for in EQN:
1) Exploration. With enemy camps and world bosses moving around and lots of hidden event triggers, I'm hoping that there is a sense of satisfaction to simply wandering around looking for trouble/lore/resources/loots. I'm hoping for a more diverse difficulty range in one locale, so I can't assume I'm safe because all the creatures around me are low-level.

2) Investigation. The above plays into investigation. Finding your favorite hunting spot may take some investigation or reaching out to friends, like finding a fishing hole in real life. And then that fishing hole may become over-crowded or dry up.

Likewise, with faction mostly "under-the-hood", you will need to poke around occasionally for quests that weren't offered before. In Qeynos, the priests of Karana (weather/travel) may have nothing to say to you. But if you run up and down roads, killing orc bands and/or calling guards to patrol roads... you may have some hidden faction that makes the priests of Karana more interested in talking to you. If you involve yourself in lots of big battles and combat, priests of Mithaniel may start having errands for you.

But without an established 'play-by-wiki' and all the NPCs having question marks over their head... it will take investigation and experimentation to find out what quests may be available and how to get those NPCs to give them to you.

3) Non-combat activities: Crafting that matters. Building/decorating that is interesting and easily displayed to others. Social activities that are engaging. Mini-games. Jumping puzzles. Scavenger hunts.

GW2 did a good job of making interesting side content (jumping puzzles, interesting vistas, cattlepult, hidden strawberry garden, underwater organ).


Anyway, I'm rambling now. The bottom line is that in my opinion 'sandbox<->themepark' has been a spectrum in most MMOs, with some giving you more freedom to forge your own destiny and some less.

A good sandbox requires both the freedom to go where you want and do what you want AND somewhere to go and something to do, which is why they are less common.

[Alirrin]

What Askari said.

A+++++, would read future posts by this person.

[Cyrian]

I played EvE Online for quite awhile.  I started off getting into a small, active PvP Corp and that was actually my Endgame as well.  We all became independently well by killing Goons alot.. like, always.   Basically we were pirates.    I had a friend who played the game as a market trader and another who was a mass farmer.  I think that's what I liked most, every playstyle was viable for fun.

[Ethawn]

I started my 13 year (and counting) love affair with MMOs when I first saw Ultima Online. It is, and always will be, one of the defining moments in my gaming history and in my life. While I am inclined to both agree and disagree with the assessment that UO is/was a sandbox, I can say that even the limiting non-sandbox aspects of the game helped define for me what a sandbox was and what it could be. Every MMO I have played since has, rightly or wrongly, been compared and measured against UO in both its design as well as the experiences it has given me.

I think about my games a lot. And by a lot I means obsessively so. They are ever present conversations in my life, whether I am having them with others or simply entertaining myself silently with endless analysis and musings on the topic. I am fascinated by what works for me. I am fascinated by what doesn't work for me. And I am always trying to understand in minute detail exactly why. I think I learn a whole lot about myself by examining the entirety of my relationship with MMOs.

Some of the things I have learned over the years is the depth to which I have a need for exploration. I need to delve the depths of the unknown and uncharted and discover something wholly new. I want to crawl into the far corners of nowhere and see what secrets the world has tucked away from casual glance.

In my games I am the mountain climber. I am the deep diver. I am the spelunker. I am the ever seeking adventurer that is largely content with not knowing what he is actually seeking, rather I embrace the journey and just go.

This was my endgame.

Both TUG and EQN have very much forced this topic to the front of the line recently, and while I was mulling this over and diving through various Reddit threads on other topics I realized (with some help from folks with similar realizations) the degree to which this always having a journey into the unknown ahead of me was critical to my game experience and the longevity of a game for me.

Interestingly enough, the "Aha!" moment came when I was watching a video about the absolute importance of the "hard core" raiding scene in games. Specifically the topic at hand was in regards to the tendency for game companies to push accessibility of the dungeon and raid content so that everyone can experience it (Something I have largely been a fan of) and how that kills a game.

What I realized, for myself, is how important that unreachable content had been for me early on in my time playing World of Warcraft. As much as part of me felt locked out of content because I couldn't dedicate every moment of my day to throwing myself at it with a large group of people, pushing our progression into this content inch by inch, emotionally I needed to have these frontiers that I couldn't get to. It meant they were always out there, always promising a new discovery (albeit not "unseen by others")... If I could only...

Once the design paradigm shifted and the content became easier to reach, with the "Hard Mode" being the dividing line between "The Best" and "The Rest", it allowed for these locations of mystery to become quickly and easily consumed. There were no more secret places to see. No more explorations to have. No more adventures waiting for me, and long journeys into the unknown for me to look forward to.

I have always had a deep desire for random content. Unexpected experience. Not just procedurally generated lands, but procedurally generated experiences. I want to wander upon something, experience a moment, that only those with me then and there will get to see. Moments of originality and uniqueness. While never expected or taken for granted, the ever present hope of finding... something, will always be there. An alter... Some runes... A book... A corpse... A chest full of baubles... The mystery and the end of the journey that spurs you on to the next adventure. Why was that there? What does it mean? Have I unleashed something horrible? Did I discover something divine? Will the darkness come now? Will the gods whisper to me?

In Ultima Online, I was so overwhelmed by the newness of the virtual world concept that I spent several years in this state of wonder and discovery. It wasn't until the landscape became an urban sprawl, and exploration inevitably met with disappointment as yet another player house was discovered jammed into some far corner of the world, that I began to lose my interest.

In Asheron's Call, I remember that there was a dungeon filled with various types of golems that made for excellent farming of "motes" which could be used to craft extremely powerful weapons. The thing was, the dungeon entrance portal moved. The world was staggering in size, and by all accounts the entrance could randomly appear at any above ground coordinates.

This one little thing gave the world a sense of randomness. Every moment was a moment of possible discovery.

I think for me, this is what a sandbox really is. Moments of discovery. Moments of newness. Moments of the unexpected and the unrepeatable. Moments of seeing the familiar become unfamiliar. The known become unknown. A celebration of what hasn't been seen yet, and of change occurring to things familiar. The seeking of the undefined, and the excitement of locating a mystery. My mystery, to share with others, to ponder and investigate. To remember with great fondness years later.

[Jezerai]

Well said!

[Rumze]

Ahh a fellow TUGer.

All this has been awesome reading. Thanks guys!

[Askari]

Ethawn has expressed, in great poetic fashion, the emotions behind my bullet #1 above: exploration.

The first and best triumph of my MMO career was in EQ1, where I started gaming. The Mithaniel Marr server had just gone live in 1999(?) and there were hordes of newbies running around like chickens with their heads cut off. I started a high elf enchantress named Incanta and wandered out into the Greater Faydark.

I was wearing a green robe. As was every other elf caster. A vast sea of green-robed elves, rushing like lemmings into the forest.

I quickly hit 4th level and got the spell: Invisibility. Oh yeah, I'm out of here!

While looking at other characters at creation, I noticed that casters starting in Qeynos got bright blue robes. Well heck, I'm invisible now. I'm invincible. I'm headed to Qeynos for a robe!

There were no maps. No wiki. Nobody knew anything. I just headed west.

What followed was approximately 4-5 hours of running, screaming, dying, wandering, cursing, and realizing that Invisibility was NOT as good as I had hoped. But finally I pulled into Qeynos and secured a bright blue robe! Huzzah! No longer was I a faceless lemming... I was the elf in the bright blue robe! All shall love me and despair!

While I was out and about, I thought I'd quickly run over to Erudin before gating home to Faydark. As I was sailing out of the harbor, a mad man aggroed me from outside the boat and killed me without any chance to run away or fight back. My corpse, with its bright blue robe, disappeared beneath the waves never to be found again. The anguish! The despair! The frustration!

But I quickly realized I could get another bright blue robe, and I gated home to Faydark.

Amidst a sea of green-robed elves, Incanta was in a bright blue robe.

People. Lost. Their. Minds.

I got HUNDREDS of tells over the next week asking me where I got the robe. I also got called insane when I explained I simply took a jaunt across the continent at 4th level to get a robe. It was my first and best MMO triumph and I will always remember it with a smile.

I love that initial rush of running off and exploring new lands.

My biggest hope for EQN is that the combination of procedurally-generated underground areas, and emergent AI leading to wandering mosters, and permanent change from Rallying Calls... might keep the land someone fresh, so I never feel like I am "done" exploring it. That's a very tall order, and I doubt they'll achieve it. But I can wish!

[PinkRose]

UO alumnus!
I played UO as well.
Is it ok if I say I don't like Sandbox games?
I like to know what the point of the game is.
Score more touchdowns, Gain more Sheep, Kill the dragon, Gather 5 wolf pelts. Whatever the point is.
Sandbox just confuses me. However, I enjoy playing games, and if the sandbox is big enough that sandbox means all different kinds of endgame in the same game, then I'm good with that.
It don't matter much what I feel about sandbox vs. themepark. I'm playing EQN with Saga.

And great story, Askari. EQ will always be abnosome because of the lack of maps and guides and wikis. That ship has sailed.

[Mixxi]

Exploration is the bestest. My one and only server first in EQ2 was discovering the jungle druid ring in Kunark the night it went live. Pirrip was 20 levels below the level of the zone, but she just kept hopping deeper and deeper in to the jungle. Those are the very best times in any game.

[Alirrin]

Exploration is great. The first time I ventured forth from Qeynos on my first ever MMO character, Henderson, to discover that all but a tiny dot on the map was black ... wow.  Wandering around Antonica with my RL cousin ... disturbing a flock of winged beetles ... going as fast as my little Halfling feet would go back toward the guards with my cousin /shout-ing "Run, Hendy, Run!"

The first time I found the zone boundary into Thundering Steppes with another friend. "What's this?" "No idea, let's click it."  <zone loads> "Um, everyone here cons red ..." "CLICK THE GATE! CLICK THE GATE!" 

So yes. Stuff to explore without feeling you need spoiler maps just to accomplish anything.

[Elly]

I feel kind of left out on the whole sandbox thing. I was a semi-late comer to MMO's, starting with City of Heroes (around 2006?). So many people I have met since though, talked in hushed tones of the awesomeness of SWG, and of the sadness of the Expansion of death (did I hear something about Pink Wookies?, I can't remember).

Granted, it's all I have known, but I love a good rollercoaster and I think if a theme park MMO is done well it can be a great time. However I think some of the elements within theme park MMO's that I enjoy so much are finding the game-within-a-game elements, which maybe is kind of sandbox-y, i.e. Auction House PvP. People who know me, know that I have a weird gift for intuitively buying and selling goods. Usually I'm more excited to figure out how to crack the markets than to do my first quests when in a new game.

I love the idea of being able to have your own shop and sell things to other players. It sounds like the EQN team has some reverence for the things that worked in SWG, and I'm excited to see them come back around in the new game.

[Xerali]

It sounds like my MMO experience is fairly limited, compared to the wealth of it listed here. I started in the original Guild Wars, migrated to WoW, lived there for a while, before spending a healthy spell in The Old Republic. I dabbled in The Secret World, and then took up a very happy residence in Guild Wars 2 (that I still, happily, maintain.)

Much of my feelings toward "sandboxiness" and "themeparks" has already been iterated here quite succinctly. For me, either is only as effective as the artistic minds behind it. The vision of a game's development team, and how well they manifest and stick to that vision, makes or breaks the experience far more than where a particular game rests on the sandbox-themepark scale. I think too much sandbox can be confusing; I like to see what kinds of stories and experiences a development team with an airtight creative process can create for me to experience. On the other end of the scale, themeparks can be too rigid; the "personal stories," found in SWToR and GW2 are fine ways to access the game's lore, but the precedence they place for player experience gets in the way of my immersion and my roleplay.

EQNext has my full attention. The current design paradigm they've laid out during August, juxtaposed with the Everquest games that came before it, is hitting a pitch-perfect tone for the MMO I'd like to play.

[Talon]

I agree, GW2's personal story feels more like I'm watching my character than being him and he's not really my character - and not just because he's Trehearne's little minion.

Ultima Online, my first MMO, had a lot of freedom but perhaps too much. I don't need an epic story but I do need something other than "go kill stuff". When I played, around launch, there were no official quests or stories. You just lived a life.

Don't get me wrong. Being able to just play a character's life in the world was a load of fun. And we eventually made our own stories when I found an RP guild on Lake Superior before I moved to Chesapeake (no Oceanic servers in those days).

Tailoring or casting. But there were times when my character felt completely inconsequential. Protecting a town, even once a month, would have been enough to stop that.

EQN looks like it will have all of the freedom to do "nothing", to be an epic adventure or anything on the scale in between. So on the days I want to just live a quiet life of a merchant, I can. But if I want to make a difference in the world (other than futile merchanting against the great lord of money, Vilidius) then I could do that too.