So, allright. Just *how* has EQ2 improved?

[Korg Ironhand]

I remember when EQ2 came out. After a lot of time spent in front of the game, I finally just sort of went "meh" and moved on. I got my berserker to level 24 (I think), but simply found the game less than compelling.

The recent talk about Vanguard being bought by SOE, along with a number of other comments, has got me wondering this question. Just how has the game been improved from the way it was, specifically? The "NGE traumatized" part of me still has doubts about Sony changing its ways even after all this time. Just looking for someone who can outline how EQ2 got better, is all.

[Namae Nai]

They have displayed excellent judgement in their hiring decisions lately for one.

I never disliked EQ2, so I'm not sure what to tell you. I got my Monk all the way to level 47 and had a blast before I moved on. Occassionally, I still come back and play her. They've put in something cool and unique into every expantion.

Maybe if I knew what you thought was 'meh' I could tell you if it's changed or not?

[Alwynn]

I never got over the elf models. Despite Soga coming out and VASTLY improving it I have that picture in my brain of Alwynn and *gasp* Kuladen looking like Michael Jackson.

*shudder*

It makes me want to power vomit while running at top speed.

PS I think the /dance is lame, too. Hella-lame.

[Jezerai]

heh.  I thought the dance was lame too, but then I saw the dance in VG.  BLEH!

[Jasyn]

There were some really interesting decisions made in EQ2 for human and dark elf hair that still make me wince....  And I think there are something like 4 or five different dance emotes in VG (all lame!); makes EQ2 dancers look good!

Anyway, people either just liked the game or they didn't.  I liked it--still do--and felt it improved over time.  I wouldn't have any idea if people who already didn't like it would feel the same way or not unless, as Namae says, there are specific areas that might have been improved that you didn't care for much in their original state.

Keep in mind I don't really remember when you left and what changes took place in relation to that happening, but I can think of a general list of some significant changes that may or may not matter to you:

• Equipment con color system was eliminated/simplified: you can either equip stuff or you can't (due to level restrictions), and it greys out when you've outgrown it.
• There are no longer any level restrictions or access requirements for traveling to other continents (old access quests can still be completed for item rewards).  I think several access restrictions on several other zones (but not all of them) may have been lifted too.
• There's more variety in equipment appearances now, but I think that's still an ongoing struggle.
• Mentoring was added: My ranger, being level 64, can complete quests and return to areas I've outgrown by mentoring with someone of a lower, more appropriate level.  Levels don't have to separate you from anyone if you just want to enjoy adventure with company or help out guildmates.
• The class archetype system is completely in the background now, and the class and subclass quests have been removed.  Your final class is chosen at character creation, and each class has been given more individual flavor right from the start, improving replayability (meaning all combat art and spell lines were revamped to accomodate the new progression scheme.  So if you were to log in again today, you would probably be spammed with an overwhelming number of new arts that you didn't have before.  Others you may no longer have.  I think offensive and defensive combat stances were something that was added in the process, at least that was the case for my ranger.
• The Isle of Refuge was revamped.  Each city has it's own starting experience, and more starting areas are available to choose from now.  Qeynos citizens begin on the Queen's Colony (revamped Isle of Refuge) and Freeport Citizens on Outpost of the Overlord (revamped Isle of Refuge).  Characters starting in Kelethin/Faydwer begin in the Fae nursery area in the Greater Faydark. The Faydark expansion is loaded with nostalgia.  Characters starting in the newly released Neriak begin their experience in Darklight Wood.  The upcoming Rise of Kunark expansion will have a neutral starting area for new characters in the Timorous Deep.
• Each of the outlying districts of Freeport and Qeynos now include individual racial lore quests.  The citizenship mechanic is more or less automatic now.
• You can reset your bind point to any location within your home city.
• Several dungeons and overland areas had content redesigns.  Ruins of Varsoon, Deathfist Citadel, Commonlands, and Nektulos Forest are examples that come to mind.
• Lots of interface improvements.  The guild window is the best I've seen.  LFG group window was just improved.  Chat channel filtering was fixed a long time ago.  Tabbed chat windows were added.  The UI isn't brown anymore.
• You can complete guild writs for any city faction without penalty with another, so you can improve all of your factions if you want to.  Artifacts can be turned in for additional status.
• An achievement progression system was added with Kingdom of Sky and added to with Echoes of Faydwer, allowing players to further individualize their characters based on their playstyles.  The closest equivalent to this would be the Alternate Advancement system from EQL.  I enjoyed the Achievement system quite a bit, and it seems like more fun that EQL's AA system (I never attained a level that allowed me to use the system in EQL; in EQ2 you begin progressing through the achievments tree as early as level 10 and continue advancing over the course of your journey, i.e. you don't need to grind for Achievement Experience).
• Quest journal capacity was increased from 50 to 75.
• The shard retrieval mechanic was removed for character death.
• The encounter con system was modified to make judging encounter difficulty somewhat simpler at a glance.
• Stealth no longer applies a movement speed reduction (movement speed enhancements are temporarily suspended however).
• Not only do opposing city factions exist, but it is possible to be KOS to the other city's guards now.
• A deity favor system was added with the introduction of Echoes of Faydwer.  More deities still to come.
• And, yes, they hired a super duper tradeskill developer.

With 35 Game Updates, I'm sure there's plenty of other things I didn't bring up that may have had a more lasting impact on others' experiences.  These are just some of the more significant ones that I remember, and most--not necessarily all--of them contributed positively toward improving my personal gameplay experience.

But would it have been enough to change the opinion of someone, like yourself, who felt that EQ2 belonged in the "meh" category?  I can't honestly answer that question for the simple fact that I never shared that opinion.  At the very least, this is a sampling (hopefully an informative sampling) of some of the changes that have been taking place over the past two and a half years.

[Korg Ironhand]

Thanks, Jasyn! That was pretty much what I was looking for, a list of the progression SOE has made.

As for what made the game 'meh', it was mainly two things. The fact that the starting system (all the way to level 20, at least) was the same for *everyone*. Every quest except for the archetype quests was the same, and the only difference was the type of reward you choose. And even *those* were the same (fighters got the plate, scout types got the leather, mage types got the cloth, etc.) Replay-ability just went out the window for me.

The second problem was the models. They were very clay-mation to me. Soga helped a little, but not much.

I'm glad to hear they got rid of the archetype system, too. It sounded like a good idea when it first came out, but in actual play the "sameness" factor really came out.

[Corsair]

The Lux Aternam gang ran out of Freeport in EQ-2 under the Avidus Aeternam banner. (Avidus meaning greed, we were mercanaries for hire, who went on speculative jobs as well for our own profit.) We had originally hopes to even do some guildwar type events with Saga, but that really never came to pass...then they did the pvp server thing, but that is I think a bit more hardcore than we  would have gone for. We wanted to be on AB, where the greatest opportunities to meet people at least having some fun "in character" would exist. By the time PvP servers came along, we were fading from the game anyhow.

What made EQ-2 fail for us in the long run? (We did make it to guild level 23 or so before giving up. Character levels typically in the 40's.)

1. Pace: EQ tended to have forced pauses between fights, If you were crawling along and in a place that was tough for you. Granted you could pick a spot and pull outside, get low-ish to mid blue mobs, and just go and go and go...but if you pushed yourself in tough places, a minute or two of recovery was needed. Fights took longer. Most importantly if you had a full group, you still did not end most every fight with full mana and HP. In EQ-2, we had a tendancy to have two kinds of fights, even in tough locations. Either we finished with little need to rest, or we got wiped out. Now the mental trick here is that a group can always choose to force themselves to rest, even if un-needed, between fights. But it just did not turn out that way. We found that is was nearly impossible to just chatter among ourselves when every soul in the group was at full mana/HP. So instead of all the great EQ-1 banter, we just kept fighting until we had to rest...which a noted pretty much only happened if we wiped out.

2. Carpal Tunnel: Actually this is kind of "Pace part 2". In EQ-2 you had to press a lot mroe buttons a lot more often and faster to be useful. It seemed a design more dedicated to reaction speed than observational awareness of the group and applied skill. (Not there there were not these things...just that in EQ-1 you could be good without being frantically fast...unless you were a bard. If you paid heed to the situation, one or two timely button clicks won the day.) Also, the "chain attack" function, while kind of cool, also caused some challenges. The need to be always clicking made for a player being less able to use /emote or chat while fighting in order to make quips. Again, the in-fight character chatter seemed to be reduced from what I preferred by the design of the game.

3. Over focused on questing: This one is a "both good and bad" deal. I loved the quest list. I love having quests. It's cool, and it motivates players to go places to find what they need for the quests. However, the quest focus was so great, particularly for guld level stuff, that it could become a bit obsessive. Getting away from teh static spawn "camp" model a bit was good! Quests were good! But it felt like the pendulum of focus maybe swumg a bit too far. *shrug* This is the point I struggle with most...something I liked in theory, but just always felt it was too critical to getting anywhere in terms of measurables in practice. It would be great iv measurables meant nothing, but that is just not the way people work. (Which is of course why those in-game measurables were designed that way hehe.)

EQ-2 did have some really cool things. In-game housing and decorating was soooo cool! Models sometimes left something to be desired in terms of varying the look of your toon...but nothing I could not live with mostly. Crafting was a little grindy at times, but had some cool ideas in the design. I liked some of the customization bits they put in based on race/class a lot.

In the end, I would have to hear that the EQ-2 paace had slowed. It does not have to be as long to rest between fights as EQ-1 per se...something in between the two would be alright. But I would want to have that sense of pace that allowed for more banter time within and between fights.

Incidentally, I think I am in the minority on this pace thought. My #1 wish for Vanguard direction is to slow down the pace just a wee bit. It's better than EQ-2 was, but still I find that most folks are so busy pressing buttons at a high rate of speed, that taking time out mid-fight to talk is tactically undesirable in most situations. Between fights recovery is also very fast still, but a tough fight is at least not literally finished with full mana/HP for all six characters....at least not if you are in a tough location. But between fights getting back to full takes mere seconds.

Enough    from me.

Cheers,
Fenris

[PinkRose]

I am in the same boat. EQ2 & Vanguard & LOTRO are all the same with regard to pace.
I used to have emotes and phrases attached to my spells. I can't do that now because there would be so much spam.
I would be shouting the whole time. There is always a button to push, as soon as refresh time is up you push another button. You don't run out of mana in a single fight.
In EQ, you had to conserve, you had to decide who to heal and when. Te was, it seemed to me, so much more strategy and thought in a fight.

[Jasyn]

I completely agree with the pacing issue although at times I find VG worse than EQ2 because not only am I combatting button mashiness, but I'm fighting my personal UI traumas and client hitchiness at the same time, so the silghtest pause is potentially detrimental.  I could get away with a lot more chatter in EQ2 as long as I was inclined to.  In VG, I often want to but can't.  Having a Docktor Wiffle in VG will cause me to die badly.  Frequently.

I've had more low health/low power close calls in EQ2 than I have in VG, but yes I think the EQ2 recovery time is so fast it's almost instantaneous.

I am a quest-a-holic, though, particularly the more story-driven ones because I enjoy the little glimpses at the storylines and lore that come with them.  EQ2 does this very well, perhaps too well as Fenris points out.

I also liked the reintroduction of (short) boat rides between Karan/D'Lere and Faydwer, though.  I had a couple of random RP encounters there in the short time they were introduced while traveling to Faydwer, which was really really nice!

[Corsair]

I must have a bit less hitching in VG than some. I do totally agree with the exXO comments. That is a very good summation of what I miss about the original EQ design.

Jasyn, I also strongly agree with the lore aspect of storylinw quests. That is the best part! In fact, that is also one of teh things I really like a lot about VG diplomacy. Some interesting lore to be had in that. Enough that all three of teh characters I have taken past 10th or so in VG are also 50 or more diplomats. I always end up doing the initial diplo quests just for the lore it seems.

If either VG or EQ-2 had that same aspect of needing to hold back a little, rather than max-speed button pushing and no emotes and all...I'd be very happy. I am having fun in VG, love the world and all that, but I do miss the EQ tactical pace and skill needs. If EQ-2 had that feel, I'd probably still be playing it. I even went back to good old EQ for a bit, but there was no way to make that work well without a mass of folks. (remember the "unlocking" servers? That was when we tried it a bit again.) The fact that SOE has both EQ-2 and VG makes me sort of hope VG might evolve into that slightly slower tactically timing oriented game, a little closer to old EQ feel, and let EQ-2 be the super quick recovery never out of mana game....just to offer different experiences for different play styles. *shrug* Time will tell eh?

Cheers,
Fen

[Trevian]

I think I felt the same as Korg.  I started EQ2 on day 2.  (I was ticked because my mailed copy arrived a day late.)  I was all giddy hearing the theme song come on.  But, I got that 'meh' feel too.  For me it was too things that mainly did it in for me - the content and the performance.

The sameness, the just good guys vs. bad guys, isle of refuge, removal of dieties, and having no Kelethin.  It just didn't feel that compelling stoyline-wise.

The performance - after installing a $500 GeForce 6800GT with 256MB of video RAM and an extra 512GB of RAM bringing my 2.4GHz system up to 1MB main memory, I still had sticky movement.  With my character not moving smoothly through the scene I was not happy.

All this turmoil over Vanguard got me looking at EQ2.  The Faydwer expansion looks interesting, as does the upcoming Kunark expansion.  I don't think I could have waited two years to get Kelethin back though.  Overall, I'll be sticking with Vanguard.

It's a good point about the key-mashing.  Maybe because I played a bard in EQ it didn't occur to me as strongly in games since.  In fact, it always struck me as ironic that of all the classes in EQ the bard was least able to chat during and even between fights.  I was constantly twisting stuff.

[Menemas]

Maybe its the expeditions with you guys that's special, but I FREQUENTLY have to be careful with my healing.  I try to keep everyone at least standing, but I've let Onichibae and Fenris bite it for the greater good a few times. 

Stallago

[Jezerai]

Hattie appreciates that!   

[Titia]

I do miss the EQ tactical pace and skill needs

To be honest, being a wizzi in EQ was kind of boring and the only skill I remember acquiering was quad kitting    Oh and corpse recovery as well (very handy now that I play a rogue) !

Maybe I had the wrong class or something because I don't feel like strategy played a great role as opposed to EQ2 where decision actually mattered in places and depending on the situation the wrong spell at the wrong time could end up in a wipe.

I left EQ2 some 2 years ago now (give or take) but even then it felt like some 'opening' choices were being made (it was just after the Ro extension) and one could see griffons appear in other places than newbie areas for example. The pace was good at that time and the chain reactions needed a bit of focus during the fight which is never bad. I feel a bit the way for VG: I see chains as opportunities to be take at the right moment. Why should a deadly counter attack (200% damage, on each hand) stay available more than a split second for example? I only whish some were sometimes linked to something else than a ctitical strikes to be triggered.

I guess the only thing I could *not* understand in EQ2 was the original design decision messing up a great deal of the EQ places and lore making both games, in my view, incompatible lore wise. After looking at the descriptions of The Faydark and Kunark I can't say I'm more happy now.

[ElektroViking]

The biggest change that i like, and Jasyn hit upon it earlier.
Mentoring.
Not only can a lvl 64 mentor down to adventure with his lvl 11 buddy.  You DON"T have to change around your spells.  You DON"T have to change around your armor.  Everything dumbs down AND you gain XP.  Thats right.  you GAIN XP while mentored.  Its not much, but it does stack.  And I can't count the number of times I've leveled up my characters while mentored.

[Lyrima]

I love mentoring too. It is my biggest hope that VG will bring it in now that SOE has the game.

Been thinking about EQ2, as well. But don't tell Guthric. Heh.

[Syllestrae]

Performance killed EQ2 for me.  I enjoyed the game itself very much.

But zone loading times were terrible, and my framerates in the higher tier areas (and around town) were god awful.

WoW, on the other hand, runs like butter

- Syll

[Namae Nai]

*poke* *poke*

Uh huh... So all that last Tuesday was just your PC on a coffee breaks with butter? :p

*tease*

[Sagacity]

In my opinion, EQ2 now is a completely different game from what it was at release.  So much has changed about the content, the direction, the mechanics, and the general gameplay that I don't think it's possible to say whether you like the game now, if you haven't played since release -- it's just that different.

Big things for me were:

• Rebalancing the classes so every class can solo, and some classes are no longer ridiculously overpowered/underpowered
• Removing subcomponents from crafting so it no longer takes 10 - 15 minutes to make one item
• Increasing harvesting quantities so you can get more than one item per harvest attempt (and never fail if your skills are maxed)
• Smooth and bug-free offline sales system
• Picking your adventure class from level 1
• Extensive quest lines specifically designed to be soloable, for those who want to solo
• Achievements, which really allow you to customize your character differently from others of your class, to suit exactly how you like to play (requires KoS or EoF expansion)
• More and niftier looking armour/weapon graphics being added (though sadly, revamping most of the lower level stuff hasn't been possible yet)

What I like most about the game overall is how very accomodating it is to SO MANY different play styles.  You like to solo?  There's tons of quests and plenty of content, even solo instances, any class can solo all the way to the highest tiers.  You like to group?  There's lots of great dungeons (many of which have been revamped since release) and mentoring makes it super easy to group with anyone you want at any level.  You like to raid?  There's raid content all through the levels, the guild city raids in particular are great raid practice and a fun way to get everyone together and earn status points.  You like to tradeskill?  No need to ever adventure, crafting is accessible without having to kill a single thing, and if you prefer to spend your time chatting and making armour, you can do.  Roleplay?  Seems to be plenty around if you go looking for it on the RP servers, for example there's a "festival of unity" going on on Antonia Bayle at the moment which the devs are even helping out with, and there's interesting lore and also frequent live events like Frostfell and Erollisi Day that are fun and generally give nice toys to all.  It just seems as if there's something for everyone, I don't know of another game that is quite so flexible in how you can choose to spend your play time and whether you are a casual player or much more serious.  Which is a definite plus in my book, as I like lots of variety!

[Syllestrae]

Uh huh... So all that last Tuesday was just your PC on a coffee breaks with butter?

I had a virus a while back, and it's since been cleaned, but ever since then my comp's been acting screwy. 

Never Winter Nights and KoTOR both crash in similar fashion (even after fresh installs).

- Syll