Online games destroying lives ('n stuff)

[DeeCaudill]

I can't believe how accurately Syll just summed up my response.

This is not a discussion that generalizes everyone's situation.  My experience doesn't necessarily mesh with that of people who can play an MMOG regularly and keep everything else in balance.  It doesn't mean that all MMOG are evil, but they have the potential to cause a heavy negative impact in some situations that makes them very comperable to other addictive situations.

I don't mean to be all doom and gloom, but my experience bears this out.  I can't say what's best for anyone else, but I know what doesn't work for me. 

[Namae Nai]

I've gambled before.  I like to play the slots.  Vegas makes a great weekend holiday.  I've never been addicted to gambling.  I don't pretend to know what it's like to be addicted to gambling.  If someone tried to explain to me what gambling addiction was like, I wouldn't try to explain to them how it's actually a great activity and look at all the positives that came along with the negatives of their gambling addiction.

- Syll

Well, you could do that Syll, but it would be considered rude. It would be flaunting a person's problem in front of them and taunting them with it. For an addict, any good their particular past-time afforded them is heavily outweighed by the damage the addiction has done to them. But for someone without an addiction, there are healthy and positive aspects to gambling, or TV watching or whathaveyou.

I still think that if you're the type of person that's going to get hooked, you'll get hooked on whatever comes your way and appeals to your taste. Yes, there is a darkside to MMO's but they *aren't* designed to steal your life and hold you no matter what, unlike drugs and alcohol. MMO's are designed to to a fun and pleasant activity that also makes a steady flow of profit for their company. I think that if you asked people at an MMO company if they wanted people to ruin their own lives over their game, they'd say that they'd rather not take the addicts money and let them hurt themselves.

It's like a monkeywrench. It doesn't do anything on it's own. The people that made it designed it to turn things and hold pipe. But you can also use it to bash yourself in the head if you like. I'm sure the people who designed and built the wrench would rather you didn't, but they can't stop you.

The problem is, I'm not connecting how you would find the designers of the game at fault for the self abuse of the users. Is there any reasonable way they could not sell their services to people who want to abuse themselves with their product? I don't think warning labels would help... should they monitor people's usage and shutdown automatically after say, 6 hours of use per day? Is there a way to stop people from using MMO or other entertainment oriented pursuits badly?

[DeeCaudill]

I don't recall implicating the designers in some sort of conspiracy and I don't see where Syll did either, Namae.

[Namae Nai]

I don't recall implicating the designers in some sort of conspiracy and I don't see where Syll did either, Namae.

That is true, but you said they were dangerous. Who made them dangerous?

If it's not the designers fault then whose fault is it that that's so?

[Syllestrae]

Well, you could do that Syll, but it would be considered rude.

That was sort of my point, because that's what you and some others in this thread are doing.

Dee and I are trying to explain the mechanisms through which MMOG's swallowed whole chunks of our lives.  We're trying to help you understand, as FYI, why they can be so addictive and how they can destroy parts of someone's life.

And the feedback we're getting ranges from "Maybe staying in your craphole of a job for years on end or flunking out of college and living with your parents fand working retail was good for you!" to "All addictions are the same and if you hadn't gotten hooked on MMOG's you would've gotten hooked on something else."

I'm not going to address the rest of your response because you're counter-arguing against points I never made.

- Syll

[Syllestrae]

That is true, but you said they were dangerous. Who made them dangerous?

If it's not the designers fault then whose fault is it that that's so?

It's irrelevant to this particular discussion.  If I say that marijuana is dangerous, because the way in which it gives you a sensation of peace and mellow can be abused by some to continually numb their motivation such that they waste away their life smoking pot and eating cheetos... if I were to say that to you, is it relevant to the discussion of the danger whether or not god above had that intention when he made marijuana?

Does whether or not the addictive qualities of MMOG's was intentionally or unintentionally designed have any bearing on whether or not those addictive qualities exist?

- Syll

[Anaris]

I kind of just browsed through all the posts without really reading them but this one stuck out:

There was a study recently that showed that people who play MMOs for the most part just watch less TV.

This rings true to me...  The time I would be spending in front of the tv is pretty much the time I spend playing mmo's because I have very little time to spare and mmo's are just more phun... It's like making your own cartoon/tv soap opera comedy thingie...

But the procrastination thing is also kinda true for me....   

At the end of the day though, it all comes down to the people and the roleplay...  Hence why I liked playing EQ and EQ2 better than any other mmo out there, because you guys and other friends were there...

[Jezerai]

I just think that people toss out the term "addiction" too freely.  It is like, if I have an addiction I am really a victim and therefore, less culpable for the situation I find myself in.  People who have an addiction have a physical compulsion that can make it very difficult to stop taking the drug, using the alcohol, or smoking the cigarette.  Addicts usually point to the fact that there is an addiction as an excuse for their behavior. 

I do believe that in the sense "addiction" is being thrown around here, anyone can be addicted to anything.  Before EQ, I would sit in front of the television and do needlework or other crafts.  Was that an addiction?  I don't think so.  I have also experienced the phenomenon of staying on-line playing for far longer than I had originally intended.  However, I think that is more a function of the social aspects of the game than anything else.  I truly enjoy the people and our interactions on-line.  Most of the time that I find myself staying awake longer than I intended it is because someone I like wakes up as I'm about ready to quit and I want to spend time with them. 

I could be doing other things.  But most of my former pursuits were solitary in nature and I much prefer the interaction with others that I get in-game.  I truly do not think I spend more time in-game than I used to with combined reading, crafting, and television watching. 

[Syllestrae]

People who have an addiction have a physical compulsion that can make it very difficult to stop taking the drug, using the alcohol, or smoking the cigarette.

So is "gambling addiction" just an excuse to you then?  Last I was in Vegas slot machines don't inject you with anything.

Here's the thing.  Not all of the chemicals in your body come from outside your body.  Your body makes it's own.  Certainly every woman here can attest to the manner in which variances in body chemistry can change their attitude and their behaviour.

Just because you don't puke your guts out when you stop gambling or online gaming doesn't mean that you can't develop an addiction to it.

Likewise, just because you're addicted to something doesn't mean you can't freely stop doing it.  It just means it's difficult (sometimes very difficult).  It means that it requires a lot of work and willpower on your part, and maybe even help from someone who cares about you to break free.

To effectively say "There's nothing stopping you from breaking your habit so quit bitching" is to fundamentally misunderstand how addictions work.

If someone tells you they're addicted to something, instead of hearing "I'm a lazy bastard and this is my excuse to keep on doing it", try hearing "I want to quit, but this is really f***ing difficult, please help me if you can".

- Syll

[Namae Nai]

....
Dee and I are trying to explain the mechanisms through which MMOG's swallowed whole chunks of our lives.  We're trying to help you understand, as FYI, why they can be so addictive and how they can destroy parts of someone's life.

And the feedback we're getting ranges from "Maybe staying in your craphole of a job for years on end or flunking out of college and living with your parents fand working retail was good for you!" to "All addictions are the same and if you hadn't gotten hooked on MMOG's you would've gotten hooked on something else."
....
- Syll

Ok, I guess need to address the original hypothesis of this argument, then. Let me know if I misquote/paraphrase you. I'll try not to.

I would never go so far as comparing MMOG games to drug addictions

/shrug, I would :p

So, in this quote Syll says that MMO games and drug addictions are comparable.

I would argue that MMOGs with their reward structure and social design tend to be a much more consuming passion than other ways for people compared to mundane alternative activities. 

I play the mandolin and enjoy it, but I'd never be able to spend thirty-plus hours a week over a period of months playing like I could with MMOGs.  I think there is a difference for many people in their ability to walk away from a MMOG compared to other passtimes and hobbies

I think that's why people liken it to drug addiction.

Dee argues here that the reward structure and social design of MMOs are why people liken it to drug addictions.

if you're inclined to procrastinating, you'll find something to procrastinate with.

I would argue that you can't break a cycle of procrastination without quitting an MMOG if it happens to be the primary enabling factor for the behavior. My personal experience bears this out.  For a run of about four years I was absolutely miserable at my job.  Around that time I started playing EQ and it became an easy escape from a very real problem (cruddy job).  Instead of doing what needed to be done, I came home from work, logged in, and ignored the real roots of my discontent.  Eventually I broke out of the cycle about three years ago and made the changes I should have taken when I started playing EQ. 

I'm not saying MMOGs are somehow systematically addictive for everyone, which is why I don't like the comparison to drug or alcohol addiction.  When I say that there are some similarities to addiction, it is because of the sorts of extreme behavior that I've seen in myself and others that stem from using MMOGs as an escape mechanism.  The Skinner reward structure of MMOGs can give them a stronger hold on certain types of people.  I happen to be one of them.

Here Dee argues that you cannot quit procrastinating if MMOs enable you to procrastinate. Dee doesn't like the comparison of MMOs to drug addiction. Dee doesn't think they are addictive for everyone, merely in their extremes they resemble each other.

A person who abuses MMO's to the point of it destroying their life would almost certainly do the same thing with another form of entertainment.

People who make these statements haven't experienced what it is about MMOG's that's dangerous.

I have spent several days loafing around the house, watching TV or otherwise getting nothing done. At the end of the day, I felt like I'd gotten nothing done.  Relaxed, but like I'd had a lazy day.  Motivated to do more with the next day, etc.

I have also spent 24 strraight hours sitting on my ass playing a MMOG.  When I stood up at the end of the day, I felt like I'd accomplished something. The in-game reward system tricks your mind into thinking you've been busy and productive.

I'm not saying MMOG's make people do anything.  People have free will.  I'm just saying they're sirens.  They're deceitful and they entice and the unprepared can lose significant chunks of their time to them.

- Syll

Syll characterizes MMOs as having a dangerous component. That they lure people into losing large chunks of time and make you think you spent it productively.

• Syll: MMO games and drug addictions are comparable.
  
• Syll: MMOs have a dangerous component. They lure people into losing large chunks of time and make you think you spent it productively.
  
• Dee: The reward structure and social design of MMOs are why people liken them to drug addictions.
  
• Dee: You cannot quit procrastinating if MMOs enable you to procrastinate.
  
• Dee: I don't like the comparison of MMOs to drug addiction.
  
• Dee: MMOs are not addictive for everyone and merely in their extremes do they resemble each other.
  

That is true, but you said they were dangerous. Who made them dangerous?

If it's not the designers fault then whose fault is it that that's so?

It's irrelevant to this particular discussion.  If I say that marijuana is dangerous, because the way in which it gives you a sensation of peace and mellow can be abused by some to continually numb their motivation such that they waste away their life smoking pot and eating cheetos... if I were to say that to you, is it relevant to the discussion of the danger whether or not god above had that intention when he made marijuana?

Does whether or not the addictive qualities of MMOG's was intentionally or unintentionally designed have any bearing on whether or not those addictive qualities exist?

- Syll

Syll, it is relevant because the design elements (reward structure and social design) of an MMO were touched on as a reason why people liken MMO to drug addictions. As you have stated, you believe that the two are comparable and how that comparison is drawn is the subject of this debate.

You have said MMO's are dangerous because they lure people into losing large chunks of time. Is it relevant whether or not the designers meant for them to be abused in such a manner as to cause this? Drugs are all concocted with the specific intention to cause a potentially harmful physical/mental states. I think it's relevant to note that MMO's differ in that they were not made to cause damage to the user. The user uses them to hurt themselves.

Drugs are addictive in and of themselves. In MMO's the person themselves is addictive, and MMOs are merely a device for playing that out. That's why I agree with Dee: MMO's are not comparable to drugs. You have to address them in completely different ways.

I've always been constantly told by others I'm 'addicted' to MMO's. I suppose I could be in denial, but sometimes I will decide I don't want to play and be gone for 6-12 months or more. During that time I almost never even let MMOs cross my mind. When I play them, I get serious because I believe that if you want people to be serious about playing you need to reciprocate.

Nailing down what makes a person 'addicted' is extremely difficult, especially when the addiction is probably closer to obsessive/compulsive behavior than what a traditional addiction entails. I do feel bad for both of ya, and I'm glad you seem much happier now. I just don't think what happened bore any resemblance to drug addiction, which is a very ugly problem that you are lucky not to have to deal with.

As far as gambling, shopping, internet, fast food or other purely mental addictions I think the situation is much the same: They need to be catagorized away from drug and alcohol dependancies because their nature is closer to O/C. Drug addictions generally require you take your *entire* life apart to fix. O/C disorders can be treated much more easily, but still do demand much of the person breaking them, and their loved ones.

[Tuppen]

So is "gambling addiction" just an excuse to you then?  Last I was in Vegas slot machines don't inject you with anything.

I personally think that "gambling addiction" is a misnomer.   It should be a gambling compulsion. 

My belief is that the term addiciton should be reserved for a physical dependency on a substance that is introduced to the body from an outside source...like alcohol addiction, drug addiction, etc. 

The problem with MMO's is that they can become obsessions which lead to compulsive, destructive behavior on the part of some individuals.   It took two years of paxil and buspar to help me overcome my obsessive/compulsive tendencies.   My "addiction" (Really should be my "obsessive-compulsive behavior") to EQ was one of the things that I needed to overcome. 

Fortunately, I finally found balance.  I still play 2 to 3 hours each night...sometimes a bit longer...but I also go to a job that I love everyday, work out regularly, go to martial arts classes, etc.  The only thing I don't do so much of anymore is watch TV or date....and I can probably blame EQ2 for that, if I have to be honest.  But then....if I do meet someone I really like, I have no doubt that EQ2 would go out the window as I would have something better to do in the evenings.

[Syllestrae]

Damnit, I accidentally paged back and my whole reply got deleted. 

Suffice it to say that if you want to create a distinction between physical addiction and compulsive behaviour, cogniscent of the fact that both are disorders, I'm fine with that.

[DeeCaudill]

Lookit all us junkies...

I think there lots of good points made in this thread.  I think it's enlightening how many of us have gone through "compulsive MMOG" states and eventually found a way to moderate or stop.  It may be an additiction-like experience, but it has to be easier to drop than any chemical dependency.

I do feel a tremendous amount of regret for the decisions I made in regard to my MMOG habits.  Some of you have known me for a long time, and I don't want anyone to feel like they are somehow a part of that regret.  It's all about me and how I let things affect me, not about the people I met along the way.

[Syllestrae]

Here's some stuff on compulsive gambling:

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001520.htm

Here are the symptoms.  If you have 5 or more you're considered to have the disorder.

Preoccupation with gambling (spending much of the time thinking about gambling, such as past experiences, or ways to get more money to gamble with)
Needing to gamble larger amounts of money in order to feel excitement
Repeated unsuccessful attempts to cut back or quit gambling
Restlessness or irritability when trying to cut back or quit gambling
Gambling to escape problems or feelings of sadness or anxiety
Chasing losses (gambling larger amounts of money to try to make back previous losses)
Lying about the amount of time or money spent gambling
Committing crimes to get money to gamble
Loss of job, significant relationship, or educational or career opportunity due to gambling
Need to borrow money for survival due to gambling losses

I bolded ones which were true for me if you substitute online gaming for gambling.   I never lost money to online gaming itself, but I was skipping work and/or not working in order to play more, living off my savings until I ran out.  After that I started lying to my parents about misc expenses so I could borrow enough money to make rent (pretended I'd damaged my car, needed some new dress shoes, etc).

- Syll

PS:

Pathological gambling is a brain disease that seems to be similar to disorders such as alcoholism and drug addiction.

neener neener :p

[Jezerai]

I deal with people with substance abuse addictions every day.  It is part of my job.  I see people literally lose their children and their lives because of it.  I don't think that I call them a loser or tell them to just get over it.  But I do tell them that they are responsible for their own decisions and their own lives.  I do tell them that part of overcoming their addiction is recognizing that they have the freedom to choose and that with that freedom comes the obligation to accept responsibility for their lives.  

[Namae Nai]

Here's some stuff on compulsive gambling:

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001520.htm

Here are the symptoms.  If you have 5 or more you're considered to have the disorder.

Preoccupation with gambling (spending much of the time thinking about gambling, such as past experiences, or ways to get more money to gamble with)
Needing to gamble larger amounts of money in order to feel excitement
Repeated unsuccessful attempts to cut back or quit gambling
Restlessness or irritability when trying to cut back or quit gambling
Gambling to escape problems or feelings of sadness or anxiety
Chasing losses (gambling larger amounts of money to try to make back previous losses)
Lying about the amount of time or money spent gambling
Committing crimes to get money to gamble
Loss of job, significant relationship, or educational or career opportunity due to gambling
Need to borrow money for survival due to gambling losses

I bolded ones which were true for me if you substitute online gaming for gambling.   I never lost money to online gaming itself, but I was skipping work and/or not working in order to play more, living off my savings until I ran out.  After that I started lying to my parents about misc expenses so I could borrow enough money to make rent (pretended I'd damaged my car, needed some new dress shoes, etc).

- Syll

PS:

Pathological gambling is a brain disease that seems to be similar to disorders such as alcoholism and drug addiction.

neener neener :p

Yeah, umm.. look at the ones you didn't bold? Did you notice only one of them could possibly apply to online gaming? That indicates to me that this litmus test of gambling addiction probably needs a little conversion before it makes you an MMO addict.

Pathological gambling is a brain disease that seems to be similar to disorders such as alcoholism and drug addiction.

This seems to be a well researched scientific quote, until you find out exactly how large the generalization could be. As Aqualung almost famously said 'A nod seems to be as good as a wink to a blind horse.' And what is a brain disease anyway? How are they caused, and can I see one of them on a cat scan?

[Lyrima]

I'll toss in my two cents.

We keep claiming that drugs and alcohol are physical addictions but gaming/gambling are not because there is no actual substance ingested.

I beg that point.

I think Syll either said this or alluded to it, but there are plenty of hormones and chemicals released in the body that are utterly and absolutely addicting.

Take, for example, that rush of adrenaline when you succeed in an encounter ig.  Or that flush of joy when you figure out a quest.

Gaming brings with it a whole host of internal chemical reactions that can be quite addicting. 

And chemical addictions are chemical addictions whether you ingest them or inspire them through your gaming/gambling.

[Syllestrae]

Yeah, umm.. look at the ones you didn't bold? Did you notice only one of them could possibly apply to online gaming? That indicates to me that this litmus test of gambling addiction probably needs a little conversion before it makes you an MMO addict.

How about this...

How about just trusting the fact that when I say that online games had a very strong hold on me, one that cost me my education and friendships and significantly delayed my growth as a person, that you just take that at face value instead of trying to debate with me about it?

I'm not saying that you are addicted to online games.  I know next to nothing about how you approach or play online games or the impact they have on your life.  I'm saying that I was addicted to them... I shouldn't have to argue that point.

[PinkRose]

Ok, coll it a bit here.

Going back to the beginning, Dee started this thread with this statement...

I would never go so far as comparing MMOG games to drug addictions and they never account for the whole explanation of how someone's life got off track.

And Syll, disagreed.

After that, the discussion has been real constructive.
Let's make sure we don't get personal.

Dee, Syll and Namae are some of our most "discussion-oriented" people we have on these boards. Make sure to keep the discussion geared towards the topic.

[Namae Nai]

How about this...

How about just trusting the fact that when I say that online games had a very strong hold on me, one that cost me my education and friendships and significantly delayed my growth as a person, that you just take that at face value instead of trying to debate with me about it?

I'm not saying that you are addicted to online games.  I know next to nothing about how you approach or play online games or the impact they have on your life.  I'm saying that I was addicted to them... I shouldn't have to argue that point.

With all due respect.. I wasn't doubting your personal experiences. You have a much deeper insight into your own life, and when you say you were addicted to MMOs, I trust and believe you.

What I was challenging was the intellectual honesty of converting a test made for gambling addicts over to test for MMOs by a simple word replacement. They're very different things, and what might be acceptable for MMOs (e.g. playing every night) might be too much for gambling and vice versa. I suppose I left that avenue open when I stated clumping gambliing, shopping, and other psychological compulsionss/addictions together.

I apologize if my interpretation was left open, and seemed to doubt your integrity. I'm doing my best to not make personal judgements a part of my side of this debate, as I consider that highly impolite.