Online games destroying lives ('n stuff)

[DeeCaudill]

Not to start a big argument, but I thought this post (found via slashdot) was an interesting account:

http://soulkerfuffle.blogspot.com/2006/10/view-from-top.html

My own experience has been that my deep involvement with MMOGs in the past has been something of an enabling factor that kept me from addressing other parts of my life that I wasn't happy with.  I would never go so far as comparing MMOG games to drug addictions and they never account for the whole explanation of how someone's life got off track.

WoW is a new beast in this department though, because it is so much more widely played than anything that came before.  I bet we're looking at another round of MMOG addiction in the news cycle.

[Syllestrae]

I would never go so far as comparing MMOG games to drug addictions

/shrug, I would :p

I got straight F's my sophmore year in College (both semesters) and was thrown out.  I would wake up around 8pm and play online games (MUDs in my case) until noon the next day.  I played at night because the connection speeds were faster.

Spent several years at home being just as bad about it.

The fact that my now wife hates these games with a passion (and hates me playing them) is about the only thing that pulled me off of them long enough to start straightening out my life.

- Syll

[PinkRose]

I've always had something going on in my life. Music, Boy Scouts, Video Games.
If you are an addict, it really doesn't matter what the item is you are addicted to.
The only problem I see if the immediate access to the video games since everyone has a computer, but not everyone has a grow house. (unless you live in Oregon)

[Rosemary]

The following is just how I feel about this issue and my experience with it, no offence is intended to anyone who feels that MMOs are harmful things.

I had a problem with MMOs a few years ago, sometimes not sleeping for days at a time, wanting to spend every waking moment in the game, etc. I was pretty unhappy in real life at the time, and MMOs provided an escape from all that. That said, it really isn't the game's fault - it's just a game. The issue was my lack of self discipline. In a world where people are trying to pass off compulsive spending as a disease rather than a lack of self control, it doesn't surprise me that people are now pointing the finger at MMOs. My mum was a compulsive spender when I was a kid, and it was entirely her own fault. It certainly wasn't the fault of people making or advertising products, and it wasn't society's fault for creating a culture where our goal is to accumulate as many belongings as we can. She wanted to buy things, so she bought them and to hell with the consequences. I wanted to lose myself in a video game where I could be whoever I wanted, so I did it and to hell with the consequences.

The comparison to drugs really falls flat for me. Drugs are physical substances that are proven to cause real, physical addiction. I used MMOs as a mental crutch because I chose to, and it's really that simple. Nobody is responsible for that but me. It was the same lack of self-discipline that originally led me to start cleaning the house or sketching a picture or making a cup of tea or seeing my friends when I was supposed to be writing a term paper, only with MMOs I wasn't doing anything productive or social in RL when I procrastinated, so it was "bad" and "harmful". The game didn't make me any more irresponsible than I was already, it just became much more obvious because of the unproductive nature of what I was wasting my time on.

[PinkRose]

What I was trying to say was that if you are an addict, you will be addicted to something.
If you are a procrastinator, you'll procrastinate with something.
If you have no self-control, then you'll lose control with something.

Right now, it's just easy to say that The problem is the product the people are using instead of the people with the problem are using the product.
I feel people need to own their own demons more and blame everything else less.

[DeeCaudill]

I would argue that MMOGs with their reward structure and social design tend to be a much more consuming passion than other ways for people compared to mundane alternative activities. 

I play the mandolin and enjoy it, but I'd never be able to spend thirty-plus hours a week over a period of months playing like I could with MMOGs.  I think there is a difference for many people in their ability to walk away from a MMOG compared to other passtimes and hobbies

I think that's why people liken it to drug addiction.

[Dicey Reilly]

There was a study recently that showed that people who play MMOs for the most part just watch less TV.  They spend no more or less time on average in combined TV and MMO playing then the average person watches TV.

That doesn't mean that some people don't go to extremes.  That doesn't mean that it doesn't adversely effect some people's lives.  It just means that on balance, the MMOs and their player bases are average in their media comsumption, it is just different then average media.

[Sagacity]

I would argue that MMOGs with their reward structure and social design tend to be a much more consuming passion than other ways for people compared to mundane alternative activities. 

Hmm ... perhaps that makes it easier to spend more time, but I agree with Rosemary and XO ... if you're inclined to procrastinating, you'll find something to procrastinate with.  Before MMO's, I used to spend hours on dial-up BBS's, and after that IRC, and there was no reward structure there.  The social ties make it easier to justify and more attractive, but at the end of the day it's my choice to procrastinate, and I don't think MMO's are truly addictive in any way - no more than any other social interaction, anyway.

[PinkRose]

Weren't there plenty of Grown husbands in the 60s, before Computers, that wasted away their days golfing?
Or further back in the 30s when they played cards?

It's the newest medium for it.
The problem I would see is that PCs are in the homes, where you can get to it instantly, without setting up a tee time.

[DeeCaudill]

if you're inclined to procrastinating, you'll find something to procrastinate with.

I would argue that you can't break a cycle of procrastination without quitting an MMOG if it happens to be the primary enabling factor for the behavior. My personal experience bears this out.  For a run of about four years I was absolutely miserable at my job.  Around that time I started playing EQ and it became an easy escape from a very real problem (cruddy job).  Instead of doing what needed to be done, I came home from work, logged in, and ignored the real roots of my discontent.  Eventually I broke out of the cycle about three years ago and made the changes I should have taken when I started playing EQ. 

I'm not saying MMOGs are somehow systematically addictive for everyone, which is why I don't like the comparison to drug or alcohol addiction.  When I say that there are some similarities to addiction, it is because of the sorts of extreme behavior that I've seen in myself and others that stem from using MMOGs as an escape mechanism.  The Skinner reward structure of MMOGs can give them a stronger hold on certain types of people.  I happen to be one of them.

[Rosemary]

From my own personal experience, I found that one of the reasons it was difficult for me to walk away from MMOs was the people I played with rather than any reward structure. Obviously this was in great part due to some wonderful and lasting friendships, but there was kind of an uglier side to it too. For one thing, it's not like a single player game where you can just drop everything and leave when you feel like it - if you join a group/raid/whatever, you have a responsibility to those people.

Then there's the fact that the world of an MMO, guilds and their boards are all pretty microcosmic in nature. For me (and others, I would venture to guess) there was a real feeling for some time of things being much more important than they truly were - I described it to a friend a couple of years ago as being like the Big Brother house, where you would see housemates screaming blue murder at one another over something as simple as a piece of burnt toast. That environment can really make you sweat the small stuff. And like Big Brother, that kind of thing can be weirdly compelling if you're a part of it, not to mention a nice distraction if you have bigger problems in your real life. Look at the Soapbox on the FV boards for a perfect example of a place where drama, attention whoring, mob mentality and mental illness were not only facts of life, but often applauded and encouraged. I probably spent as much time on the boards as I did in the game, and so did many others. Can EQ be held responsible for any of that?

[Lyrima]

I found this website fantastically interesting.  Maybe it will add to the conversation?

http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/gateway_intro.html

This is his introduction:

I surveyed MMORPG players for the first time in the Fall of 99. Since then, I've surveyed over 35,000 MMORPG players from most of the popular US MMORPGs. Over the past 5 years, I've presented these findings in a variety of formats. I settled on The Daedalus Project as a way to easily present findings, but the problem that emerged was that it became hard to illustrate themes and show the big picture using a blog format.

The Daedalus Gateway is an attempt to provide a coherent gateway to all those findings. Also, they are meant as a set of thematic primers for people who stumble onto the site but have no idea where to start or how to make sense of all the information. In the short introductions, I sometimes make reference to other research in order to draw out the larger themes. To avoid confusion, all links in the text are internal links to more in-depth data or presentations. External links are clearly marked as such at the bottom of each page.

I hope these pages are useful as a means to navigate through the underlying data that has been presented over the past few years. These pages will also be updated as new findings and resources become available.

[Namae Nai]

I look at it as MMO's in the end provide entertainment. Some people entertain themselves by playing a guitar, some watch TV, some listen to music, some people collect stamps, some do gardening, others hang out at the mall and don't buy anything. In the end, none of these past-times accomplish really anything except for the pleasure we take from doing them.

A person who abuses MMO's to the point of it destroying their life would almost certainly do the same thing with another form of entertainment. It's not that they are 'hooked' on MMOs, it's that they're trying to hide from the other parts of their lives. That's what you need to address if 'addiction' is an issue, not the nature of MMOs.

I will agree that MMO's are socially inconvenient for people on your side of the screen. It's difficult to stop sometimes, but if you set limits for yourself there really shouldn't be a problem unless you want there to be a problem.

[Syllestrae]

A person who abuses MMO's to the point of it destroying their life would almost certainly do the same thing with another form of entertainment.

People who make these statements haven't experienced what it is about MMOG's that's dangerous.

I have spent several days loafing around the house, watching TV or otherwise getting nothing done. At the end of the day, I felt like I'd gotten nothing done.  Relaxed, but like I'd had a lazy day.  Motivated to do more with the next day, etc.

I have also spent 24 strraight hours sitting on my ass playing a MMOG.  When I stood up at the end of the day, I felt like I'd accomplished something. The in-game reward system tricks your mind into thinking you've been busy and productive.

I'm not saying MMOG's make people do anything.  People have free will.  I'm just saying they're sirens.  They're deceitful and they entice and the unprepared can lose significant chunks of their time to them.

- Syll

[Namae Nai]

Well, I never do anything I would consider remotely productive even when I'm in game. I'm a meta-meta-slacker. 

XP, loot, and levels are all happy accidents. I love to wave at them as they go by. 

[DeeCaudill]

From my own personal experience, I found that one of the reasons it was difficult for me to walk away from MMOs was the people I played with rather than any reward structure.

I would argue that the social experience you are describing is partly engineered by game design.  At the extreme end of things, like a serious raiding guild, almost the entire set of social rules within a guild is a consequence of game design.

A person who abuses MMO's to the point of it destroying their life would almost certainly do the same thing with another form of entertainment. It's not that they are 'hooked' on MMOs, it's that they're trying to hide from the other parts of their lives. That's what you need to address if 'addiction' is an issue, not the nature of MMOs.

That's a pretty and unfair generalization towards those of us who have had balance issues with MMOGs in the past.  I still have lots of other passions today, but none of them have produced an equivalent negative impact on my life that the years I squandered on MMOGs did.

[Sagacity]

I still have lots of other passions today, but none of them have produced an equivalent negative impact on my life that the years I squandered on MMOGs did.

Just reading what you've written, I don't quite understand why you seem to be saying MMOG's had such a negative impact on your life, or why the years were squandered.

Around that time I started playing EQ and it became an easy escape from a very real problem (cruddy job).  Instead of doing what needed to be done, I came home from work, logged in, and ignored the real roots of my discontent. 

If you'd had a job you loved and adored, and came home to play EQ at night, would you still say the years had been squandered and the impact on your life has been negative? 

If you hadn't played EQ but taken up gambling, or a religious cult, or something else, wouldn't it have been just as easy to ignore the cruddy job? 

To play devil's advocate, wouldn't it be just as easy to look at it in reverse and say you were miserable and the years were negative because you had a cruddy job and were ignoring the fact you really needed to get out of it, but that EQ was at least an enjoyable pastime that brightened up your evenings during that period?  The job was the reason you consider those years negative, and squandered.  Perhaps your current passions aren't as consuming as your time in EQ, but that is that just because you don't have the same need to escape your current life as you did back then?  There's no way to know, really.  If EQ hadn't been around back then, perhaps you'd have addressed the job issue earlier - or perhaps you'd just have found another way to escape.  Goodness knows I was in a job I disliked for several years, but I don't think EQ has anything to do with my remaining there for so long.  EQ just gave me something fun to do in the evenings.

I understand that you and others are saying MMOGs make it EASIER to use them as an escape, and trick your mind into thinking you're being productive when you're not.  But I don't see that EQ is any worse than any other easy escape from a bad situation that a person wants to ignore.  Many (most) types of escape make it easy for people to keep coming back.  And for that matter EQ is probably better than a lot of other escapes; you didn't come out of it with a drug addiction, a gambling debt, or a wierd cult brainwashing.  You did come out with friends and acquaintances across the world, a lot of great creative writing you wouldn't otherwise have produced, and the knowledge that you made a lot of people's lives more interesting and enjoyable.

I guess I'm just baffled by the extreme negativity towards MMO's from you and Syll, when it really doesn't seem to me from the examples given that MMO's were the real root of the problem.

[Wystro]

I've had balance issues with EverQuest where I would literally stay up all weekend and play, and when I dreamt, I dreamt of EQ. I went a certain way that I found that I could either have friends in real life or friends on line, and I chose friends on line.

That said, my involvement in the greater community led to me writing creatively and doing artwork after about 12 years of burying all of what made life special for me under a pile of what I thought my life was supposed to be. I also met two people who I count as part of my handful of dearest friends.

It is a dangerous, addictive place where escapist dysfunctions find the perfect fit. It is also a wellspring of creativity and community. I think that it is a microcosm of life complete with all of life's dangers. I also think that my life and the quality of my life have ultimately changed for the better.

I'm not trying to be cute, but I whole-heartedly agree with everyone's statements. I think that MMOs are a dichotomy of addictive, crappy, soul-sucking waste and of vibrant community of incredibly bright and creative people.

[Syllestrae]

I guess I'm just baffled by the extreme negativity towards MMO's from you and Syll, when it really doesn't seem to me from the examples given that MMO's were the real root of the problem.

What you perceive as extreme negativity I perceive as honesty.  It's apt that you should mention gambling and religious cults because both of those have addictive factors as well.

"Gambling addiction" isn't just an excuse for blowing a lot of money at the Casino.  It's a real problem.

And yes, for any given addiction, the root causes that drive it are most likely unrelated to the activity itself.  But that doesn't mean that the addictive properties aren't real, and it doesn't mean that you'd just find something else.

To play devil's advocate, wouldn't it be just as easy to look at it in reverse and say you were miserable and the years were negative because you had a cruddy job and were ignoring the fact you really needed to get out of it, but that EQ was at least an enjoyable pastime that brightened up your evenings during that period? 

No, it's not as easy to look at it that way.  Because it's a time in life where you needed to feel crappy.  You needed to feel so goddamn crappy and miserable that you'd be motivated to do something about it. 

Negative emotions are there for a reason.  Their inherent unpleasantness is a motivator.  The fact that you don't want to keep feeling a certain way is a very nice kick in the pants every day to consider changing it.  Drugs numb those emotions (even non-addictive ones like pot where you can just settle down into a cool mellow and not worry about it anymore).  MMOG's don't so much numb them as replace them.  They substitute false senses of accomplishment and productivity. 

The job was the reason you consider those years negative, and squandered.

In part.  But what you're missing is that MMOG's were an adequate crutch at keeping him in that crappy job.

And for that matter EQ is probably better than a lot of other escapes; you didn't come out of it with a drug addiction, a gambling debt, or a wierd cult brainwashing.

No, I just came out of it a 25 year-old adult with no money and only 1 year of college behind him.

You did come out with friends and acquaintances across the world,

Yes, I've made friends through EQ.  But honest to god... it's not that hard to make friends.   You can go to a D&D convention over a weekend and walk out with several new friends.  Saying "MMOG's aren't dangerous because you can make friends in them" doesn't logically flow.  You can make friends in any social activity.

a lot of great creative writing you wouldn't otherwise have produced,

Perhaps.  Or possibly you would've produced more.  Or possibly you would've explored a different creative outlet.

and the knowledge that you made a lot of people's lives more interesting and enjoyable.

Again, this isn't hard to do.

I know you're baffled by this, but like I said, I'm just being honest.  It's a side of online gaming you haven't personally experienced and so it's hard for you to understand what it's like for someone who has.

I've gambled before.  I like to play the slots.  Vegas makes a great weekend holiday.  I've never been addicted to gambling.  I don't pretend to know what it's like to be addicted to gambling.  If someone tried to explain to me what gambling addiction was like, I wouldn't try to explain to them how it's actually a great activity and look at all the positives that came along with the negatives of their gambling addiction.

- Syll

[Lyrima]

It is a dangerous, addictive place where escapist dysfunctions find the perfect fit. It is also a wellspring of creativity and community.

Yes.