Help me with some wording

[Alwynn]

I need some quick help.

Tomorrow before my lesson I want to give the following brainbooster (I give them a problem/whatever before starting the lesson to get their brains working).

As I was going to St. Ives,
I met a man with seven wives.
Every wife had seven sacks,
Every sack had seven cats,
Every cat had seven kits.
Kits, cats, sacks, wives,
How many were going to St. Ives?

I want the students to figure that one out.  Warning, I am going to ruin the answer, because that is what I need help on.


The answer is One. If you are going to St. Ives and meet these people then they are going the other way.

NOW.. I know what you're thinking. And I know what my kids are immediately going to argue. These are gifted kids, and they hate to be wrong. "You all could be going the same way and you were going faster!" I say that because I was tricked as well by the brain teaser and that is first, immediate thought I had. How do we know the crew was going the other way? It can be argued that you are going the same way.

Help me replace the word "met". I need a word that denotes an intersection in some way, but at different (if not completely opposite) directions. The trick is to find a word that is not so obvious as to immediately clue off even those who scan and don't really read. I've mentally gone over Met, came upon, intersected, bypassed, and a few others.

HELP!

I wonder if I am making any sense...

[Jezerai]

Hmm.  The way I remember this riddle it bypasses the met problem.  The riddle says you met the man and he had all the wives and bags and cats and things.  The riddle doesn't say that all this entourage was going with him.

[ElektroViking]

came upon?

Two could be a correct answer, told Bou's way

[Alwynn]

Hmm true. I might be able to turn it into a lesson on word usage.

Thanks!

[ElektroViking]

oh well...in that case:
((scroll to end to see what movie this riddle was in))

The answer to the riddle is usually said to be one: the person reciting the rhyme is the only one who is explicitly stated as going to St Ives, and everyone else met by them assumed to be travelling the opposite direction, although they could be going anywhere else including nowhere at all.

[edit] Other possible solutions

The following interpretations of the riddle reflect the ambiguity of the language, which could originally have been specific to the normal social expectations of a period in history. The idea of meeting somebody on a journey obviously depends on the means of transport and the kind of journey being undertaken. If the route to St Ives is basically one road with traffic moving both ways along it, it is reasonable to assume that "meeting" someone will involve them coming the other way towards you. To be accurate you would "pass" somebody going in the same direction or stationary by the roadside. You could also meet them at a junction if they were crossing your route on their way to somewhere else.

Depending on how the question is interpreted, the answer could also be zero: the person travelling to St Ives is not any of "kits, cats, sacks, wives". Even with this interpretation, however, the answer could be one: in the case the narrator is a wife.

Going away from St Ives were: one (1) man, seven (7) wives, seven times seven (49) sacks, seven times seven times seven (343) cats, and seven times seven times seven times seven (2,401) kits, making a total of 8 humans, 49 sacks, and a somewhat implausible 2,744 felines; a grand total of 2,800 kits, cats, sacks, and wives (or 2,801 if you include the man). However, as "sacks" are inanimate objects, 2752 presumably living creatures were headed away from St. Ives.

Although it is usually assumed that the man with the wives was going away from St Ives, it may well be true that they were going to St Ives: obviously, on my way to a place, I can meet somebody going to the same place; if they were dragging along sacks filled with 2,744 cats and kittens, it would be easy to overtake them. In that case, the answer is 2802.

Another solution derives from the fact that the narrator mentions that the man has seven wives, but does not explicitly state that the wives are present, nor their sacks, cats, and kits. If the man is travelling to St. Ives and not away, the answer could be two, one, or zero (depending on if you count only wives, sacks, cats, and kits, and if the narrator be a wife).

Yet another answer is that one is in fact the proper answer, given that the man and his cadre of wives, cats, and kittens could be living in a house along the way to St Ives, and the narrator simply paused along the way at his house.

Another solution would treat the riddle as a red herring, and state that the average number of wives, sacks, cats and kittens travelling to a large market town in the 18th century could easily number much more than the 2801 mentioned in the riddle.

One could also look at it in another way. "...I met a man..." could indeed refer to a man moving from the place, moving to the place or just standing or living somewhere along the track.

Another involves the use of past tense – "Every wife had seven sacks,". Yesterday I had money, today I have not. Using this past tense could mean that either a wife was carrying seven sacks, or USED to carry seven sacks but at the moment both men meet one or more sacks were missing. Same for a cat which had seven kits. Perhaps 1 of the kits died. The cat still HAS 6 kits, but HAD 7.

Another solution is that the man met was not monogamous, and had 7 wives. Therefore, this scenario is brought forth:

The narrator is going to St. Ives, and stops at a pub, or someplace similar, for a quick rest. While there, he meets the man, who tells the narrator about his multiple wives, who are at home, each with their seven sacks, cats, and kittens.

That means that only one, the narrator, was going to St. Ives.

In Die Hard: With A Vengeance, Bruce Willis' John McClain and Samuel L. Jackson's Zeus Carver get into an argument over the answer; Zeus has come up with the incorrect answer of 2,401, but stops McClain from finishing the phone call to Jeremy Irons' Simon (which he told them would be 555 and the correct answer):

    Zeus: No, wait, wait! It's a trick. It's a trick.
    John: What? Whadda you mean?
    Zeus: ...I forgot about the man.
    John: What man? f*** the man! We got ten seconds!
    Zeus: He said 'How many were going to St. Ives', right? The riddle begins 'As I was going to St. Ives, I met a man with seven wives.' The guy and his wives aren't going anywhere.
    John: ...What are they doing?
    Zeus: Sitting in the f***ing road, waiting on the m-- how the hell should I know?!
    John: How many was going to St. Ives then?
    Zeus: The guy. Just the guy.
    John: Just one guy?
    Zeus: The answer's one!

[ElektroViking]

and yes...that's ALL ignorable....~grins~
true...but a bit pointless...

[Namae Nai]

My answers would be zero, 1 or NI (nearly infinite) depending on the interpretation of the question.

As I was going to St. Ives,
I met a man with seven wives.
Every wife had seven sacks,
Every sack had seven cats,
Every cat had seven kits.
Kits, cats, sacks, wives,
How many were going to St. Ives?

It would be zero if the narrator was a man or a single woman and the answer included only the set of those people mentioned in the poem.

It would be one if the narrator was a married woman and the answer included only the set of those people mentioned in the poem.

If the answer included every kit, cat, sack, or wife that ever had a moment of going to St. Ives, then the number would be massive, and unknowable in it's exact size.

[Grimaldo]

As stated, we only know for sure that the narrator is going to St. Ives.  So the answer is 1.

However, if we assume the polygamist and his pet-collector wives are all going to St. Ives as well we can do some math:

Each cat had 7 kits: 7 litters of 7 = 49 kits
49 kittens and 7 cats in each sack = 56 overcrowded animals per sack. (somebody call the Humane Society!)
Each wife has 7 sacks = 7 sacks * 56 animals =  392 animals per wife
There are 7 wives with a suspicious affinity for cats = 392 animals * 7 wives = 2744 living beings associated with the sacks.
Add the Polygamist = 2745
Add the narrator = 2746 weirdos heading for St. Ives.

Where the hell is St. Ives anyway?

[Peri]

I remember the first time I read this particular riddle. I was about 10 and the obvious answer to me was zero because of the punctuation.


... every kat had seven kits (period.)

Kits, cats, sacks, and wives, how many were going to St. Ives? (this is one statement asking only abou the kits, cats, sacks etc.)

Therefore i stick by my answer.

Zero

[Namae Nai]

Where the hell is St. Ives anyway?

It's an 18th century market town in England, I believe. On the extreme southern tip, if it's referring to the St. Ives in Cornwall.

I remember the first time I read this particular riddle. I was about 10 and the obvious answer to me was zero because of the punctuation.


... every kat had seven kits (period.)

Kits, cats, sacks, and wives, how many were going to St. Ives? (this is one statement asking only abou the kits, cats, sacks etc.)

Therefore i stick by my answer.

Zero

Unless the narrator was a wife, herself. In which case it would be one, wouldn't it?

[Peri]

Or a cat

or for that matter a sack

[Lyrima]

If you start this, you will have them addicted. Eventually, they will be able to ascertain the answer just by listening once.

I use Stories to Solve with older children, and they LOVE them.  It is good for teenagers and adults too.  I was stumped by many of the riddles.  Usually, I'd read the story as many times as they wished (you could have them read it themselves...although the practice at listening comprehension is invaluable if you read them aloud) and I would answer yes or no to their questions and solutions. I never gave more than a yes or a no.  The idea was they had to listen to each other to find the answer collectively.

I was a very popular teacher with the older kids.  They loved these things. 

[Alwynn]

I'm interested, but when you say "older" ... can you pin that down a bit? 11th graders? 7th graders?

[Grimaldo]

Or a cat

or for that matter a sack

Yes, but did the cat in the sack have a hat?

[Namae Nai]

I wonder if this poem is where 's got their name?

[Lyrima]

I am positive that your students will know some of the 'stories'

I am positive all of your students will be stumped by something in that book and the following one, which I didn't like as much, but I do own: More Stories to Solve.

Most libraries have copies.  Go take a look.

I've been to workshops where these have been used and folks are stumped until they have asked questions and worked it out.

My use of the book is my own, but not terribly inspired.  Sorta a lesson in social skills (much like you were trying to teach about not raising hands. I've done that in 1st grade through 6th.  It's an important skill =) and the game 20 questions.  Only I don't limit the questions..I do not entertain or re-answer questions that have already been asked. Listen to each other! Learn from each other!  Feel the power of success when the whole group gets it!

When they are completely out of ideas and still no answer, I summarize what they've learned...just to remind them they are working as a team.  When a basket is scored...it was the team that got the ball down the court, yes?

Anyway. Get it. Your students will not know SOMETHING in it.

[ElektroViking]

lol.
I listed the mathamatical equation and all of its irregularites.

Going away from St Ives were: one (1) man, seven (7) wives, seven times seven (49) sacks, seven times seven times seven (343) cats, and seven times seven times seven times seven (2,401) kits, making a total of 8 humans, 49 sacks, and a somewhat implausible 2,744 felines; a grand total of 2,800 kits, cats, sacks, and wives (or 2,801 if you include the man). However, as "sacks" are inanimate objects, 2752 presumably living creatures were headed away from St. Ives.

It also listed all the phonetical interpretations.


As well as listed the orignal verse which said Kittens, Cats, Sacks, Wives....How many were going to St. Ives.

....St. Ives is in England i believe...